Crafting Stability in a Co-Parenting Dynamic | 010

Neil, it's good to chat with you today.

Good to be here.

We are a couple of the dads in the Red Dead group who have separated from our children's parents, our children's mothers, and of working our way through those trials and tribulations. The valuable conversation to the community, a little bit about our journeys and what we learned, and what we're still learning about those relationships. Start a little bit about maybe where we're at, I can share that my son is 15 years old. And I've been single parenting him since he was three. So it's been a 12 year journey. The journey started off pretty rocky, figuring out, you know, what's the rotation? What's, uh, what's the sharing schedule, like, who's responsible for what things on what dates, but it didn't take us too long to figure out that we were going to move to a week on week off rotation. And so every Friday, my son has been switching houses. And I think we decided that Fridays were a good day, because it gave us that weekend of recalibration and reconnecting with each other redeveloping those communication skills before they dive back into their school week routine. One of the things I'll share that we started decided early on is that a week was a long time. And to mitigate that, we, we incorporated a date night. And that was a real staple for us early on. But that was is in the middle of our week, the other parent would have our son out for dinner over to their house for an afternoon. Just sort of touch point, you know, there's a whole week without seeing your kids and a little long time. Now there needs a teenager, it's not long enough, but you know, we evolve. So that that's, that's been my setup for a couple of years. It'll tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, and my, my situation I've been I've been at this for almost three years now. I have two daughters who are now 13 and 15. Their names are being Sophia. And yeah, so when I separated was January 1 2021. And they were 10 and 12 years old and I to do the week on week off I really liked the sounds of date night. Yeah, Friday as well, many of the same reasons, a little bit of a weekend to settling with the girls and sort of a time to relax with each other before rolling straight into a school week. It's been it's been a challenging journey for me, but the the, to date, the goal is, is safety, consistency and and peace basically there was a period of time where I think I've been divorced for maybe a year now. So two years of separation or almost two years of separation and divorce and and the there was the process of creating the separation agreement where we made all the rules and things and that was that was a learning experience and and a learning curve through all that. And that has served us well. Currently, the girls who live with their mom week on week off live with me they've they've lived with our partners, we I'm working on a blended family right now, since for the past year, I have a partner, a girlfriend who has a 10 year old daughter as well. So when we're all together, we have three kids in the house. And then every other week I have I have my my girlfriend's daughter in the house as well. So although I'm separating week on week off, I'm with kids in the house every day, still, just on my own, they're in and out. And that's kind of how it's been it's flexibility has been key as well, in keeping keeping things rolling nicely. Certainly come summertime, it gets kind of it's hard to hard to maintain the week on week off with vacation plans and things in and around Christmas time as well. So those are all things that we've been learning how to navigate along the way and and and switch off year to year. Yeah, it's it's it's, it's a big change. I was married for 15 years before that in that house. And so both my daughters were, you know, had had big chunks of time with all of us in the house. So, yeah, life Life throws us curveballs, I guess you can say.

Yeah, and you say it's a big change for us as parents and then I think when we're going through the emotions of a relationship Putting up about you. But I was really focused on my emotions. And it took me a while to turn around and realize like, oh, yeah, like my child's going through a lot of the same stuff without much influence on Yeah, how it turns out for him.

Yeah, and I often say to my, you know, keep it in my mind that that might make kids sort of almost have the least stability in the whole thing. I mean, I live in my home, every day, I don't move around, and their mom lives in her home. And they're the ones that sort of flip back and forth every week. You're right, it is important to keep that, that in my mind, and in a way that I've sort of have been working with that is to make sure that my kids are getting support outside of the parents roles, you know, they they have, they see a therapist, and and I think that was an important thing to do for them to give them a safe space outside of your parents house where they could bounce thoughts and things in a private setting, that's just their own.

Did you ever incorporate anything? Since they're going back and forth? Did you ever I mean, they're a little bit older, I guess, when my son was three, when we split, we had some staples that we always ensure went back and forth with him. So it's just like, there was some consistency, something that was always with him something that was at both houses.

Mm hmm. Yeah, we do do that. I mean, there was there is still a bit of feeling that he could say three years in it, there's still some, some, some some getting out of wrinkles in that. And I've found that clothing can be a funny one back and forth, you know, or Christmas gifts and things that that my preference, you know, if I give give my child a gift, or my daughter's a gift would be that it sticks around my house. And maybe that's not the best thing to do. So yeah, there are items that are important that they carry back and forth. And for the first while I did it with with our family dog was going back and forth to the dog was part of the group that went back and forth. However, that that has changed now in and the dog is with me, but they have they have items and to this day, still identifying things that would be important. And an example right now is that my my older daughter uses a guitar of mine to play, she's learning how to play guitar and she wants to take it back and forth and her mom and I have decided probably the best thing to do is to get her her own guitar, so that she can carry that back and forth and it's just her own belonging and, and there's no thought of is this my dad's guitar or whatever it is. And and sometimes those those objects I've found for me, can be a little bit triggering too, if I start seeing things that I know are moms belongings showing up in my house, I do take note, I try not to make an outward stink about it. But I do notice that I pick up on it so so for everybody involved is kind of an evolution of those belongings from the past and new belongings and how do we manage that? And I think really the for us, the key is just to keep the girls in the loop, respond to their needs. I mean, that's kind of always the, the mantra through this whole thing is their needs first and and respond to that. Absolutely,

I can. I can agree with that challenge of figuring out what goes back and forth. And the sharing. I mean, we shared a car for a year, back and forth. It's like the car wait with the kid, because it was full of there was so much stuff. I think I really benefited with my son's heavy involvement in community sports. And what that meant was he had a practice or gain five or six nights a week. And we decided early on that it wasn't just whose house he was at, as their responsibility to get him to and from, we decided to share that responsibility. Especially since we're sharing a vehicle made a little easier. But what we found out was some parents on his sports teams were also separated. But the kid had two sets of hockey gear, because the parents could never get close enough to trade the bag back and forth. Because they would get into an argument or fight. So they just bought a whole separate set of gear in different gear at each house. You know, there's different ways of dealing with it. But yeah, you know,

I find that I was quite sensitive about that stuff in the very beginning. You know, I would see, well, especially with older daughters, they were sharing clothing and things like that. And I would get quite sensitive about those visual kind of cues showing up a pair of shoes at the front door that were very familiar from my past or a jacket or a sweater from my past. But as time has gone gone on, you know, it's taken a lot of a lot of work of sort of keeping my own issues my own and not bringing them out into the into the kids realm. And that that has been sort of like one of the big lessons through this whole thing for me is separating And, and not getting caught up in, in my own kind of emotion or, or my own sort of selfish needs. And just keeping them out of the loop of that stuff. And as like I say, as time has gone on, it's become easier and easier because I actually just pick my battles a lot more selectively and and realize where those kind of those kind of issues that I had that remind if I was bringing them to the, to the table with the girls, it just wasn't wasn't a good thing at all. They they, they were the ones suffering the most through that because they're trying to piece together, what's going on here? What's happening, that's wrong, quote unquote. What's their role in it? Is they are they having a role in it? So being aware of all that stuff has been really important for me to kind of keep light on that and keep myself my own head on straight through through separation and divorce has been important. Yeah,

I mean, I would love to ask, because, as you mentioned, these, these children that come back and forth are often bringing with them reminders of you know, difficult times. And just because that's a reminder doesn't mean that their cause. And so keeping that separate, what has been a strategy for you to work through that on your own without in involving the kids? Well,

so when I first when I first separated, I was my whole life, social life and everything, it was kind of blown up, my partner or my ex, and I had, like I say, had been together for 15 years. So our social circles were quite overlap. And so I knew that once I separated, I needed to work on community on my own, I needed to build a support system around myself as a father, I needed to find support around parenting as a father and I no longer had my kid's mom there to bounce ideas off of or things like so that's actually what led me to the Red Dog collective, was, was a friend that was in already that I was sort of speaking with, while I was going through a set with the very beginning of the separation, and he made the suggestion. So I was able to grab that opportunity and get involved with the Red Dead collective. And what that did was sort of, you know, I almost shamefully admit that it sort of got me into the realms and the ideas of accountability of my actions, showing up for my kids the way that I want to, and really started taking a look at these things that, you know, when I when I got to a point of separating divorce, there was reasons why. And, and, and some of those, if not, let's say half or more of let's I don't know where you want to put it. But you know, there was an admission of, yeah, I'm a part of this, and I'm not, I'm not showing up the way I need to for this family. So yeah, Red Dead collective was huge for me to get involved with those men, and be in circle, the first circles that ever sat in and then also exposed to other men's groups as well through the Red Dead collective that I then involved myself with, and to this day still maintain connection with so yeah, building support outside of my family for myself, and also making sure that I was, you know, at work, I have an EAP take advantage of that at work, I have benefits, take advantage of that and get all the sort of counseling support I needed as well. Yeah, it was a real learning experience, you know, to tap into that sort of thing. And, and, and thank God, I found it, you know, I wouldn't be where I am now, it wouldn't be able to deal with the challenges I've faced in the past three years without those men in my, in my, in my corner, let's say, yeah, that's, that's

huge. I do jumped in on the EAP and got somebody to talk to you right away, which was great. Yeah. But for me, the first eight to nine years of single parenting, the only other data in my world was my own debt. And, you know, going to him for advice is just, you know, I'm gonna pass down the same challenges he, he gave me and I'm just going to directly pass those down without somewhere else to bounce ideas off of different perspectives. So it's been a huge to find that alignment and the community that comes with a circle like red dots.

And, you know, you mentioned your data, you know, unfortunately my dad passed away very early on in my life, and so I don't have that resource to tap into. And that's another area where rad dads has been huge for me is just connection with men and becoming comfortable, forming meaningful relationships with other men has been world changing for ain't really another father. It's been a place where, yeah, it's finally I have people that I can look to other fathers Around Me for guidance or just look at watching examples. You know, I didn't grew up with that stuff. So I was kind of winging it as a father for the first 10 1011 years. Yeah. And now, you know, now I have Yeah, like, I have a huge community around me to to tap into and check in with really?

That's funny. I, it's like, once you become a parent, you realize all parents are just winging it. We thought I thought mine had it all figured out until I was apparently realized. Oh, yeah, that's right. No, they still don't have a bigger I don't have figured out for learning. No,

no, no. You mentioned there's some point.

Maybe one day, my kids get it. You mentioned the separation agreement. And I found that to be really important piece, because it was coming to terms or an agreement on like, the sharing the time, the holidays, and that we've included things in ours about the distance, we're willing to live apart from each other. You know, and all kinds of other things were just thrown in there. In you know, three years later, what are you finding to be some of those key pieces within the agreement? And is there anything that you would add to it now, from what you know, with the experience you've had?

Well, it's really interesting, you know, when I, when I developed, when I was working on the separation agreement, I spent a lot of time with it. At first, I attempted to do it on my own using sort of a template offline online, you can find these things and fill them in. And I'm lucky enough to have some family friends, that are lawyers as well. And after I've done a whole bunch of work, I, I sort of asked the lawyer friend to look over it with me, and we spent a bunch of time going over it, and I was learning more and more about the process, then it was time to take it to a real lawyer when it needed to get signed. And then it got blown apart. It was He was, you know, maybe the lawyer that a friend that I was using, I don't know what happened there. But but maybe a little bit out of the loop. She was almost retired. But however anyways, a few more back and forth with with with a paid lawyer. And we ended up with this paperwork popping out the other end that got registered in the courts. Now. It's interesting, you know, I've run into some issues with my separation agreement in that I'm not sure what to do when, when it's not being followed. And that has come up a couple of times. So my mind sets out all the all the sort of the standard things the the the schedule for, for guardianship week on week off how the holidays will work, you know, Christmas in particular, and birthdays and, and things like that. And there was division of assets and all that sort of stuff as well. Yeah, so so I'm kind of in a funny, I'm not in a funny place with it. But I'm really curious about my separation agreement in that, when there have been times where I feel like it's not being followed. It gets me in a funny place where I have this sort of administrative power, you can say, or you were, I could almost be like, I gotta envision myself holding up this document and saying, hey, you know, tapping it with one finger, the rules are in here. And I find that that doesn't really get me anywhere. So what I have learned is that managing this relationship is more than like a document from the courts or rules that were agreed on at any one time, the relationship continues. And for the relationship to be successful means that everyone needs to come to the table, from a position of more or less empathy and compassion, and try and work through any disagreements. Not not through legal legal contract that we made, but rather, coming back to learning how to communicate well with each other and learning how to problem solve together. We have a DX, and I have a well oiled process for how we deal with conflict between the two of us and it was dysfunctional. And so we're kind of working through how to retool that, while also maintaining boundaries that neither one of us have around our relationship as as CO parents and individuals now, not not a not a family unit. So what would I add to the separation agreement? I don't know that I would add too much more to it. At this point. I've not really run into things and when I say when I say they've run into disagreements around it has been mostly around growing into the kids being able to choose where they want to be where regardless of what the arrangement has been when they're younger, 1210 years old, yeah, you know, having the schedule in place. And week on week off, they didn't really have a lot of say, and they just went where we told them now at 15 and 13, certainly my 15 year old daughter has a lot more opinion on where she wants to be. And, and that requires a lot of flexibility outside of the separation agreement. She's now at an age where she can make the decisions where she wants to be. And the best way to work moving forward. And that, from my perspective, has been just supporting it and making sure that she's getting her needs met. And it's not causing conflict between parents, and not causing conflict between parent and child. So it's been a learning, it's been a learning curve, the separation agreement was kind of like a next necessary thing for asset division of assets and things like that in my mind, but the workings of the family moving forward after that, it sort of becomes a document that needs to be a little more dynamic than static. Like there's things that change along the way. And, and we've talked about revisiting it and, and retooling it, I just don't know if I want to spend a bunch of money of the lawyers to do that, if you know what I mean. So I think it'll be there as an agreement as as kind of like a basic framework, but the way, the way I see it moving forward, is that it will be in we will interpret it, and and negotiate, you know, in a fair way moving like, as a way to kind of respond to the girls changing needs as they get older. Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah, I found the same thing, that the document itself wasn't like the legally binding structure, but it was more of a framework or a starting of the conversation to ensure that at least you're on the same page as to time shared and what the priorities are for looking after that child.

Yeah. And the last place I want to be with it is, you know, dragging someone into court with a document saying that this you're not you're not doing what I want you to do. And what we agreed to two years ago here, and I don't see that getting me anywhere. No, that's anywhere, you know, and

I think you you hit the nail on the head with like, the key piece that comes out of it is, yeah, this is a starting point. But the kids are growing and flexibility is really the most essential piece of it all. Because there's even just trying to enforce the rigidity of a schedule, can create conflict, and may not be what the kid wants, what the kids asking for. And I found that around holiday schedules around the back and forth that Yeah, absolutely. If you don't have the flexibility to adjust your priorities and your expectations, then it's again, just going to come down to unnecessary disagreements where Yeah, ultimately, what is most important is what is the child's experience. And I found, it took me a little while to get there. But I found that my son's best experience is what his mom is, is feeling like she's having a good experience. It's almost like not that it was my responsibility to make her happy and bend and be as accommodating to her needs. But if she was upset and angry, then it does trickle down into his experience. And I always wanted his experience to be more positive. So I aimed to create a positive environment, not just in my home, but in her home as well by not adding any fuel to whatever fire might be burning over there.

Yeah, I hear that, I hear that. And I find myself stepping into a leadership role. Still, or again, or now however you want to put it managing everybody in the old family, let's say it requires me to show up with with strong leadership skills and a plan. And that way I'm showing up the way I want to I'm thinking things through I'm not reacting in an emotional way which which which causes a ripple over to their mom, which causes a ripple down to the children like what you were just explaining. So yeah, the way I'm finding that that I'm that I'm handling that is just what I'm saying that it was just like really sort of accepting a bit of a leadership role, a bit of coaching along the way for everybody, myself included and just being open and open to open to discussion also open to receiving feedback on on how I'm managing my side of things. Yeah, a real lesson in letting go. I can say that this, this this past two and a half, three years has been figuring out what's important to me figuring out who I want to be and then acting on that, and who I want to be isn't a person that's in, in high conflict divorce. And the person that I want to be isn't someone who is, you know, putting their kids in a position to choose between parents or something like, like, those are my fears. Yeah. Is is, is, is losing my kids. Moreover, losing my kids, because I'm acting up, and I'm not showing up how I need to and and feeling, you know, the the scenario I can envision if I'm if I'm, if I'm reacting emotionally and not grounded myself is, is Yeah, losing my kids due to my own actions, I'll just be the worst salutely

Yeah, I hear that fear as a driver. You know, immediately when I became a single parent, my mind goes to the fingers you hear about on TV or the news that the distant non involved father the, and that was my greatest fear to ever be. I know, I shouldn't be worried about other people's opinions, but to be seen as not involved or distant. And I overcompensated. Like I said he had he had sports five or six days a week and even on mums week when he's at her house, I would still show up to practice, I would still show up to games, or go to every school event that I could, that my schedule would allow. And I think my goal from from very early on was to make sure he knew I loved him and to just be present and around as much as humanly possible. And I figured that as long as I did those two things, everything else will sort itself out, may have sacrificed a few of my own ambitions and a few things in my world. But it did serve to create a really strong bond between m&r.

Yeah, sometimes I find, especially in these teen years, is that it can feel a little bit thankless, I mean, dealing with dealing with divorce in a family and then add on top of that a good healthy dose of teen angst. And I have to be very careful not to take things personally, you know, remind myself that this is you know, some of the behavior isn't due to divorce, some of the behavior is due to developmental appropriate behavior at a 15 year old kind of state and, and there's identifying these different things, but also like seeing how they blend together as well. Like they can kind of amplify each other. However, I also keep my eye on, on rebellion in my family, and I'm starting to touch into that area. But thankfully, gratefully, the rebellion is showing up in my, with my daughters, sort of innocently, you know, belting out tunes with a guitar down in the basement, you know, not just belting them out, but like hooking up the amp and a mic and close behind a locked door. But you can hear this everywhere in the house, right? So it's those kinds of those kinds of things that, you know, those challenges of parenting are those, you know, these things that I'll look back on, I think, probably and smile thinking about these rebellions. And it may it may continue. I mean, I'm not, I'm not going to be naive and think that this is where it ends, it may be even more coming down the pipeline, I'll just be prepared for that. It all kind of it all kind of swings back in my mind to just who do I want to be as a father? You know, married or not? How do I want to show up? How do I want to support these kids? How do I get them through their teens as injury free, let's say as possible, if that's possible, and also with a vision of a lasting relationship with them as well. So that when they're out of my house, 1819 25, wherever that happens, that we have established a relationship where we want to see each other still after that, and you know,

and I think that is such a beautiful way of putting it like as long as you have that end goal that that Northstar or that guiding principle, a valuable relationship with them, where they still want to reach out and connect with you when they're older. That kind of helps you make decisions and helps you you know, in your reactions and helps really understand what you want to do in each moment. Yeah, yeah, I would say, but

I was just gonna, just gonna continue there a little bit in some more experiences as a parent is the one that that really throws me for a loop that I've really had to do a lot of work on. Is, is that sort of, I don't know if it's identifying if there's a favorite parent or something or a feeling of an of a favorite parent. And it might be a bit of a trap for me because I am a father of two girls and these girls, you know, I can't explain back to, or I can expect that the bond between mother and daughter is fairly strong. And the experience I've had is when the girls are the flexibility that's needed in the schedule week on week off, it tends to be wanting to stay with mom an extra day or an extra week here or there. So that's been a hard one to manage. And also, you know, check myself on as well. In the beginning, there was a lot of kicking and screaming about that stuff, let's say or, you know, coming out with, with guns blazing, if it was if I felt like something unfair was happening. And that's been a place where I've really had to do some soul searching and figuring out where my stance was coming from, was it in response to my kids needs? Or was it in response to my needs and my desires, and that's one that I really identified as, oh, wait a second, I was kind of going wrong there. When I was causing big stinks about things, I do have boundaries around it. Like there's days that have more weight than others, let's say if there's a vacation planned or something or getaway planned, and then yeah, it's things a little more if if one of the kids doesn't want to come. But the new the or another new approach, but the approach that's that's working and is will, will be what I do from here on in is just, again, it's all about those kids needs, really, it's all about their comfort at the end of the day, I mean, there has to be, I have to guide a little bit if I see it getting out of balance. And then guide to get might be just be a suggested of hey, you know what, like, it's not your time isn't my time, because that became an argument of whose time is it. However, I do put aside this time, because I like spending time with you. And that's kind of how I might voice that is that I miss you. And I do hope to see you in the coming weeks. However, I think that letting go there and letting go of needing to be have every single day on that schedule adhered to has been good. And just lowering the level of stress between everybody, when those times come up, I can speak about it with their mom, we can make arrangements agree to changes. And and it works both ways. Now. So let's so that's out has been kind of one of the bigger challenges in get one of the things to get used to, let's say, because right off the bat as a dad, or as a parent in a divorce is Have you seen your kid half as much right? And after 1012 years of every single day. That's a big adjustment. So those days, those those those days felt so valuable to me, and I just wanted to hang on to them with all my might. But that kind of I kind of went a stray with that or when we went a little bit sideways weren't hanging on a bit too tight and not being flexible enough.

Yeah, it sounds from what I'm hearing that you're able to have those conversations with their mother to make those arrangements and have that flexibility. Yeah,

and that's that's important is just keeping those parenting conversations between the parents. And it's so easy and convenient to say, hey, ask your mom if it's okay to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? But what what really does is that's putting the child in quite a stressful position of, you know, God knows what they're thinking, Am I going to take the brunt of anger. On this other side, when the person says what the heck you're supposed to be with me that day or something like, you know, or what the heck, that's not how it was meant to be the child's put in opposition. And that's the go between that I work hard to avoid. So really had to put some energy into establishing boundaries around that with with their mom and just make sure that we are maintaining, okay, parenting decisions or adult decisions that are discussed between us. The kids aren't in the room, the kids aren't in earshot. This is business. And and if if their input as neither we can decide that at that point. But it was very slippery slope, to have them within earshot or on a speakerphone making a decision at the same time. And that was just not working at all. That's a word of warning, let's say to avoid that one. Totally.

Yeah, I think the false beliefs I held from the beginning was that a divorce was the end of a relationship. But when you have kids, it's really just an evolution of that relationship. And you're now finding your new footing in this new territory of how you're going to still relate, but from a distance and without putting those kids in between that distance. It really did benefit me when going to these practices and these games were, you know, over the course of time, we started to sit and stand closer and closer together. started having conversations during that time and the realization is her favorite topic is my favorite topic, which is our child And to be able to talk about him and his experiences, really did sort of bridge a new type of relationship between us where, you know, I would even send photos on my weeks and say, here's what he's experiencing this week, here's where his emotions are at, here's where his challenges are. Just so you know, heading into your week, this is what we looked at. And I felt like that really did create a new avenue for communication and create some consistency for him. So like, he wasn't having to explain himself, when he went to mom's house, she already had some ideas of where he was at and was able to support him.

Yeah, working together, it's really like, like you say, when the when the divorce happened in the separation happened to me, there was a feeling like, oh, this is over, but, but the relationship I have with their moms still exists, and our interpersonal stuff still exists as well, and still requires attention and work. That doesn't go away. Especially. I mean, maybe if there were no kids in the mix, it'd be a totally different story. Right. But with kids in the mix, now, there's always that, you know, we're always bound by our kids, and we have a relationship that we can't ignore, it needs to be nurtured, it needs to be cared for. And and that's all, that's all part of this growth that we're talking about here is is is I really feel like in the last three years, I've gone through a big transition and a lot of learning, of putting away my own emotions and Ego, let's say, and looking at okay, yeah, what's, what's really important here? Is it me winning this battle? Or is it me having more stuff on a ledger? More? Is it me winning? Or is it? Are we are we two people here that care about these two kids and, and we should be working together to get them to where they need to be and as healthily and safely as possible.

So yeah, yeah, it's a collaborative effort in the end. Yeah.

And it's hard. I mean, it's not comfortable. You know, like, when you mentioned, like, sort of sitting at sporting events or things, I think of concerts and whatnot in the very beginning. You could, I wanted to be on the other side of the room, from that person. And, and as it takes some time to get comfortable with that, it takes some time to be like, Okay, we're sitting together again. And and I'm not I'm not quite there yet, but we're getting there. We're getting there. Yeah, conversation happening.

I think knowing that taking the time is okay. Like, yeah, it's, it's not an immediate thing does evolve, and just like the kids are growing, so are we, we're still growing into this new way of working with each other.

I mean, it's not it's not exactly the same as it was, by any means. I mean, there's, there's intimacy that's not in the mix anymore. There's living together that's not in the mix anymore. And there's also just like, also, some boundaries that are in place where, you know, I sort of hold my ground a little bit and, like my privacy in my life, so I have to maintain that a little bit. And that's all again, learning, learning, learning how to how to establish maintain and respect boundaries, right.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know, that from the very beginning, that it all comes down to safety, peace, and flexibility. And then ultimately, that you have a thriving relationship with your kids where they want to continue co talking to you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, it's not easy for anyone but it sounds like you know, we're both doing what we can to make the most of it and keep our kids happy, healthy. Well,

talking about it is a big part of it as well and connecting with other parents and other men dads is huge. I think I think it helps me process my thoughts on it. It helps me keep my emotions at bay. It helps me from from reacting irrationally. Yeah, it's really helped me kind of kind of feel like I'm approaching this with integrity and an accountability

of that. In the end, that's all you got. Right? Our integrity. Evel Knievel I appreciate you hanging out chatting with me about this today. It's a tough topic but we're not alone. A lot of people are dealing with that and like you said the more we could talk about it and help each other out the greater world Yeah,

thank you for having me here to discuss this it really feels good to to talk to another dad who has been through it I know you have a number of years on me on this and from what you describe i i see a vision for myself of that that peace is really key for me it was peace in my household peace between my kids peace between me and my partner, my girlfriend and also peace between me and the and the x and I can achieve that I will be a happy Chappie.

Yeah, it's it's not a target or goal, but I'll share that you know, one of the moments where I really realized that I've done well in establishing the continued the continuation of this relationship was My son's mom or my son has a blended family on mom's side. And they have a new child together. And last couple of years in a row, I've been invited to their new child's birthday parties. Because he because he's at those sports events, and you know, I'm one of the people in his world. And so he wants me at his birthday party. And when when people hear that they're like, you go to your ex wife's new child's birthday party. I'm like, Yeah, kids. Great. I love the kid. He's, he's, he's my son. He's my son's brother. Right. So why not? Why not celebrate the guy? And? Yeah, it feels good. That's beautiful. Yeah. All right. Well, Neil, thanks again. And we'll see you on the circle. Yep.

Take care Braden.