Balancing Parental Impulses: Instinct vs Insight | 008

Fathers are men who have a biological and physiological and cultural foundation from which we act in the world. On a daily basis, we can find ourselves face to face with an impulse that comes from somewhere deep inside us and judge it, or be happily surprised by it. We can also find ourselves holding back and repressing an impulse without necessarily always knowing how to relate to it. What are some of these impulses and natural instincts we have? And how do we each experience them? This is Matthew Sloane. joining me for today's topic of instincts and impulses in fatherhood is Michael, Michael, and I have kids that are in school together, our kids have played together. I've enjoyed the conversations we've had parent, parent. And Michael, I find you to be both a thoughtful and playful person. So I'm really looking forward to exploring this topic with you. Welcome to the conversation.

Thank you, Matt. Yeah,

so let's get grounded. And then we will share our own experience on this topic. And for those listening, as long as you're not driving, please feel free to close your eyes. And find yourself in a seated or standing position, whichever feels good to you right now. And for now, just notice your breathing

can bring a little attention to the backside of your body, and even attention to a few inches away from the back of your spine off of your skin even.

Notice the way your body is holding any posture

notice any sensations within your body pulsing or temperature or movement of any kind.

And then make a quick adjustment, whatever feels good to your posture and your breathing.

And bring yourself back to the conversation. Okay, here I am. Awesome. Welcome back. So Michael, why don't we start with you. Recent fatherhood wins in rows and tell us about your kids.

Really, when when was my kids are five and seven. And I think the winds and the worlds are currently linked together. In that I'm still very much in a physical adjustment period to my new career which is in landscape things, which is an incredibly physically demanding job. And where as the woes that have come along with that, in my relationship to my kids and my family are feeling physically limited in terms of what I'm excited to go and do with them. And my energy level for getting after it and you haven't big energy play time with them. But it's very much in tandem with that the lack of stress that comes with this mental stress and good my ability to leave my job at my job and come home and be fully present person and also the with the lack of energy come what is really important with me, which is a relief of need to control or even ability to control the evening. Whereas with more energy, I've definitely found myself trying to boost really emotionally and physically steer things however I feel like I would like or need them to go in the moment. When I come home from this job and or on my weekends. I feel like a bit of this sense of choose to. All I can do is just go with the flow and just kind of be You in the moment with them, which is radically and I practically an ideal state of mind. Germany is. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting tandem. And I do generally have energy for them. So most things are most things are wins right now, wouldn't you few words as it comes to fatherhood, which I certainly couldn't always say thank you.

And for me, I would say, when, for me is recently, getting a little more in touch with the practice of similar to what you said, I have my own version of wanting to control how things go with my kids. And a good example was, during Halloween, we went out to the town next to us Gladstone to the Main Street. And there's just a lot of people there. And generally, I'm okay in crowds, but I don't seek them out. And so I was a little more aware that this was very different for my kids to be around crowds. And rather than over protect them, or be pre emptive, about all this stuff that they should know to be okay with what they're going to experience. I just let it be, and practice being very present myself. And I really enjoyed that. Because the alternative is that, especially getting out the door to an event like that, I will have a project manager hat on. And I will start pushing and reminding people that we're late, or we're going to be late. And the most important thing in the world is to be on time. Right? It's not right. But that's the lens through which I look at everything, because I see with that project manager lens, how things will stack up as the evening goes on, and then have anxiety about the bedtime moment, because we're starting an event after dinner. So there's this little window where we can go out and have fun, but we gotta be back on time. So we gotta leave on time, all that. So the practice that evening, very recently on Halloween was really enjoyable, I felt very present, I actually enjoyed it, I could enjoy the costumes that I saw the people we ran into, and, and not push to get us out the door night, I think we're probably about five minutes at most later than we might have otherwise been. So it's a it's a humble place to be to see that. And also glad that I was able to practice it differently this time.

It's great. And I, I can't tell you how much I relate to it for me, it's, it's, it's become like a slayer in my brain of like, oh, you're starting, you're starting right here, just getting out the door on time your brain is already going after the controls. And it's like I can quite that right from the get go. And I mean with few exceptions. It just let the extra few minutes, whatever they are go by. Typically it winds up being absolutely nothing when it comes to the course of whatever you're trying to make happen. And it's an absolute game changer when it comes to being present with the rest of the experience. And even with that getting out the door. Typically you're like you're so focused on that you don't even notice all these hilarious. Typically your kid, right transition moments where you just like you just took it down, you just get to watch your kid in all of their for Ripstick transition moment glory. You know, like there's so bad transitions. Yeah. And you there's no way you can change that. Yeah. And if you quiet your own brain down and just watch, you're actually connecting with them on a human level and usually probably get a good giggle out of like, I can't tell you how many times Katherine's and my anecdote about whatever transpired that we that Paint the perfect picture of our kids in a moment happened during a transition period. It's so ridiculous. So yeah, yeah. And then And then, you know, also acknowledging that as, as a project manager, as the p&l is the one that has to make sure everything's going just the way it's supposed to go. You and if you, you know, you're like, you're already looking towards the end of the night and how it's, you know, whatever. Gonna be miserable, the kids are gonna be loose, melting down and losing their mind. And if you really don't release that, if you actually stay in that mindset, and keep that as like this like picture in your head, what's going to happen? You will manifest that, as the project manager. Well, you will make sure in with the energy that you bring to the situation that you unwittingly bid on your kids that will, surefire start meltdown.

Yeah, I find that to be true. I mean, I noticed moments like, I can look at my son putting on his jacket, which he's still learning how to do. And it could be so frustrating if I come from that lens of project manager, or it could be so cute and hilarious if I'm just a present father. Yeah,

I mean, this, you just got the amount of times and it's not like, you can always focus on the, the fact things moments aren't going to be forever. And there will be the time when you miss them so much. But a lot of times, and the most frustrating moment is nearly can just jump to your kid at 15 years old, and how much they don't need you and how much they don't even want you. Right? How are we this moment that you're so frustrated by right now will look like in your mind die? And yeah, doesn't always work?

Yeah, well, this might be a good segue, I'm thinking about like, the amount of resistance versus allowance. And there's sort of an overlap with the topic. Maybe you can say a little bit about because we were emailing about this topic. And I think some of the words you use were like natural instinct, or urge or impulse? Like, how would you define that in your personal experience? As a father? How would you name some of the examples related to those things?

Well, it's just like, comes from that very guttural plate, where you just don't even know what's coming out of your mouth, or what your body's doing until five minutes after it's happening. Like, what, what just happened? Or where did I just go? And why is my kid crying? But yeah, it's like, it's all tied back to becoming a new father, and having no idea what you're doing. And being so scared, and so many of our impulses and urges that just stick with us for so long. I feel like originate originated from that place of terror as an and just so out of control and so oblivious to what your new role is and what I should be doing as a father when you're when you have a new baby and you're developing so many new habits and the habits and

you're an example of some of the real good and the bad.

Well, you'd like whether it I mean, I'm I feel like I can get to a specific example. It's I like work through touching back in with me as a new father. And I'm thinking about myself being so exhausted, having very little good positive juice in my body that isn't tied to anxiety. And, like, I even look back and think about like, what I would try to Due to connect with my baby and how really a lot of things were in anxiety, the positive things.

And Marie gonna try to connect with the baby.

Oh, just, like, be goofy and try to like, get your kid didn't laugh and you're, you're already like, developing this need to like control the narratives.

Like they should be happy.

Or? Yeah, I need to make my kid into a certain type of person by doing a series of thing. Yeah. Instead of just being like, I wonder what it's like to be a three month old you just sit here at arm's length gold. And then I'm just here to make sure they don't fall down the stairs.

Yeah that's a good

you know and and then he made me do like I'm now I'm imagining like Philip kind of floating into maybe my kid for just a brief brief just a moment. And then they shit their pants for the fourth time, and you were just, you're just gotten to your second minute of just being with your kid and feeling like oh, this was a nice moment. And then and then you're, you decided to go with the with the reusable cloth diapers. And and, and so you go in and yours. And you're in this shit everywhere outside of the cloth diaper. And they give you the plastic razors to hold the cloth diaper together, like the rubberband razors that like if they flipped, because they did have to be so sharp to begin to the clocks. Yeah. And so then when you you're putting them on, and you didn't quite get it, like, you have to stretch it out to get it to tighten around the clock paper. And then the thing snaps because it's off the rubber band, and it snaps on your finger because your fingers right there. And then there's razor blades on the rubber band. So it cuts your finger. And all you were doing was trying to change your diaper for the eighth time in the last three. And your fingers cut, and you lose your mind. And you're in the near losing your mind. Right over the top of your, of your baby.

And this is where I'm assuming this is your direct experience, even though you're saying you this has happened to you many times. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And you're still alone. Because your your, your wife has to work during the day. And, and then you work at night. And yeah, and and this is this is a huge starting, this was me starting to develop, like my frustrations as a father and and, and exhaustion and control and fear and, you know, it's like, starting to put together some building blocks as

you know, yeah, I hear that. And I relate to that as early on, in my not knowing what I ought to be doing with my child, I developed these I develop habits that are associating me with being out of my element and maybe anxious and scared or I'm going to do the wrong thing. And that being so early on in the relationship with the child that it can't help if if it's not addressed differently and help it just grow as the average way to interact with them. I see that Yeah. itself. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, this is I know there is a there's a power in it. It must be somewhat addictive as a as a father, the power of and I don't know, is it

like what you mean like Superman or that this feeling like incompetence or the power of some of

the power of this frustration, the anger whatever comes along with it creates that pattern like that's what I asked myself sometimes it's like, why is that so? Not even easy but actually desirable from time to get into exhaustion, frustration mode, and I look back at like, like, I don't think he did that as a as a young, single person before responsibility. I think we did restoration and anger at all costs, like I would, I would sooner, completely walk away from the situation that even had that potential that I was just gonna like. And and maybe that is maybe that's it maybe there's just like, I don't know, I know it's so strange to me that it like even now like I can feel negative feelings being the driver of what's happening and where things are going with any given day moment. Hour, and I see them and I'm like, why don't you stop this right now? And I don't, and I can't stop it. Yeah. Which is weird. I'm not sure why there's, there's a certain power in that. But the thing is, is he craves both to me, I'm part of something like, my brain.

Now was the same way before fatherhood, I didn't have a relationship to anger or frustration, I had a relationship to going with the flow and definitely an identity that I enjoyed, which was Matt's Nice. He's easygoing, who just gets along with everyone. And it's not that that's not true or okay. But that's all it was. And father a forced me into these other feelings that I was not interested in. So I relate completely to that before and after, and having frustration about the frustration or having anger about the anger, like, what's going on? Like, I'm, I'm just trying to be a dad, why is there all this extra crap that has never been there before.

I'm curious about the relationships of the stealing to a feeling of authenticity. And by looked back at the same thing that you were just describing as a single person in housing a lot of us and what I, what I would even call it, like, identifying factors, like there was like, part of my what I consider to be like, my identity, I could sort of like, if I didn't have those natural feelings going, I didn't, I wouldn't go out, I wouldn't go be around people, you know, if I was feeling low or anything, but those were times where I just spent a long time. And if I was going to go out, it's because I was feeling easygoing, carefree and go with the flow. That's what took me out. And then I even do feel like, shortly after having a kid, I had this huge, gigantic goal, keeping it the exact same, being the exact same person and doing all the same things, but with a kid. And then I would we would go over to neighbor's house, the kids or single friends houses or whoever, and we'd go out and do social things. And I would lie to be trying to pretend to be the same person. And I felt like I was lying. It felt all inauthentic that I felt like I was pretending that I was actually very sprayed and exhausted and stressed and in my head and controlling and what I was pretending to be the relaxed guy and it was very inauthentic and I didn't like that feeling. And it's possible that the the the reason the frustration and we've we've given to it with me and we've been doing it is because it feels authentic and so easy. Son fix selves, which was like maybe some transitional goal around that time of early fathers to try and be like, you know, instead of four Trying to be this person. I'm not anymore. Maybe I just gonna try to be authentic? What's that gonna feel like? And then you're like, Oh, that looks like Snopes restricted English.

Yeah. Yeah, that's an ongoing journey for me. I mean, the wondering I might bring is, is it the instinct or the impulse? That is? Or is that impulse impulse that asking me to be reactive? And explosive? Is that being authentic? Is that me just taking off the filters? And letting me be me? Yeah. Or is it? There's somewhere in the middle, where I'm glad I get to experience that because my body my soul, some part of me was like, so restricting that for most of my life, so I have to experience it somewhere. But then ENFP, so my children standing there, or, you know, just in the father context for now? What is my responsibility? And is it to repress which doesn't feel good? Or is it to do something else? Yeah, what would you make of that?

Well, I feel like it's impossible to go through experiences as a father, as a parent, and expect yourself to completely check yourself and edit yourself before any given feeling as it translates to an outward emotion or reaction assist, that would be the most impossible goal you could possibly give yourself. Yeah. So it's probably somewhere in the place of healings are gonna happen. You're going to have reactions. There's going to be different levels of things that happened to you that bring different reactions and different parts of you. And being cognizant of them being what's happening in the moment, seeing the effect your reaction has on the other people in the room and treating it like in the home. You just You just brought this thing into the room. And now how are you going to handle that? This new this new thing? Yeah, so like, this morning, my son was in for unlocking going to do anything you say kind of the transition moment getting ready for school, not eating breakfast, not doing any of the things I need to do to get out the door or what needs to be in five minutes. I'm telling him over and over and over again to eat the rest of this capitalist, he's doing anything but and then on my energy have escalated to the point where it's causing him anxiety, obviously, or whatever it is, you know how it works manifesting my my energy, however, is manifesting in his body. It's not like I can totally know that except that I see some burning to become more chaotic because of my energy. And he goes into his sister's room where Catherine is getting Ellie ready to go to school. And he lets out his energy with a big wing of this giant stuffed animal. Forgetting that we've put up these new like brightly colored globe lights that are about the most hazardous wastes you could possibly imagine to put in a kid's room or like very thin inland. hanging from the ceiling and Mac with a giant stuffed animal. It hit another one the crack, smash the glass, then glass shards go spilling onto the floor, razor sharp. So now my building energy goes to snapping energy and instead of it having anything to do on with what is now going on in this other room, I snap at him to go eat at breakfast like this was my energy My anger is still so focused on the breakfast and I'm gonna go eat breakfast and so then and it was big it was wow it was full full death and I heard it come out of me reverberates off the wall and now this new thing that entered the room and and he had the reaction you've actually already quoted that he was actually even crying a little bit just from smashing the light like that shocked him yeah obviously I just added on to that does go out you know kind of shock and steer go to start eating his breakfast and you know, here's that moment where like alright, now I had the decision as a dad to to just lay in the feed off of this new power that I got out of this moment and give him maybe a good lecture continues frustratedly right rolling a jacket on him and ducking speed into shoes and getting into the car with all of that same energy it's it's you know, or with it's like tipping point and so finally you know, luckily that morning is was all the smokes there was too much too quickly. I had barely been awake for 12 minutes you know, like this is like a pretty much toxic way to start the day for him for me for everything everyone involved and so like I was able to NC goes into the bathroom and she already starts brushing your teeth without being asked you know I chewed and big smile and a thank you for brushing his teeth and no at least a an attempt at a resolve that glass can be cleaned up and thank you for eating your breakfast and brushing your teeth and now we're getting up to darkness and in that really been mostly the smile and electronics in my body My body and energy words had come back down to a level headed place he just completely if I hadn't done that he would have taken the chaos that I had just absolutely they pick me up pomson In taking that to a school day and then a headache for the teacher to deal with. I know that and it's not always that easy to do if I was able to break that energy and I think he wouldn't, you know pretty settled down and needs you to deal with the Sturgis day.

Yeah, you can I love that story by the way I appreciate you sharing it. I wonder about the when we talk about instincts Do you also consider the way that you responded after where you shifted your energy and gave him a smile? Is that coming from an instinctual place as well just a different instincts or do you see it differently?

It was that way this this morning. Right? It's his body just bulking in yet feeling so bad about what just transpired and it was just instinctual to just try to lighten them up a little bit and to just my allow them you know give them give them love sometimes it's a little bit more nuanced where I can let out similar amount of frustration and a lot of his body energy will still be telling me that you know not only does he not grasp, like what is his effect on the world but you know it's hard to explain but like there's this level of like I'm going to keep being chaotic you know he could have easily after he smashed the light kept being overly just just methods of everybody's else everybody needs. Yeah, and continue to be transition this chaotic seven year old that I probably wouldn't have been able to let go quite as easily if I just kept having to do the same thing, it probably would have built even more. Yeah, so a lot of it had to do with is body language and him saying with his body and what he did in the next steps after that, in his own way without actually saying it, I'm sorry. I'm gonna doubt I did not mean to do what just happened. Yeah, everybody. So it was very easy for me to, in my body language say you're forgiven no problem, I love you. But there's so many other times where pecados just as much disruption, and then it's just keep going, keep going for sometimes half of the days, and me still holding on to it doesn't help the situation. And sometimes I can look outside myself, and realize that even though he's not apologizing, or changing the way things are going, that doesn't mean I can't, yeah, I can change the energy with my own positive with on things. And so those those are, you know, the few and glorious moments of it, if you're a real champ as a dad, you can, you can try to manifest change through being just a positive, loving example. And then general very much similarly, you could stay on that same path, that's chaos, and adding negativity to situation that makes it more to push harder. And it's a call of who's going to control the situation with more negativity.

Yeah, I have except experienced that a version of it. The most recent heightened version of that, for me is when especially at bedtime, when my son is getting tired. And this is the three and a half year old. When he's so out of control that he starts either clamping down with nails on people's skin, including my own, or slapping or kicking, or biting. And it's like, it's like he, he's like a rabid squirrel. He's like using everything at his disposal to pass along. This is my story that he's passing along the energy in himself that he doesn't know what to do is. So one of the ways is through his hand, it's going to feel really good to hit or to grab hard. And in those moments, if I can be conscious of that he's not doing this to try to hurt me or someone else doing this because he has no clue as to what to do with this energy inside him. And it's so scary to him. And if I can somehow help him the way that you described like, like changing your energy, if I can help him somehow regulate his own energy, not through force or manipulation, like the force of a threat even, like you better calm down, you know, that's not showing him how to regulate that's a threat. I mean, me staying calm while he's digging his fingernails into my neck, which is an amazing challenge. And a worthy challenge. As long as I don't just become that like martyr like he needs to know he's hurting me, either somehow in that moment without escalating or later. But I also want to challenge myself to not like how might I de escalate even when the escalating temptation is so huge? Yeah. I know we're getting close to the end of our time. But did you want to say a little more about this?

Yeah, with boys. It's funny we use we talked to use to talk about the exact same thing where it's, it's stress would manifest itself in his hands and the way she grip things and it things and it still does. And just to end the show on this, like, really trying to fix anything. We know we as parents, we're like, well, then we'll try to get him. Opposite of things to do with his hands you know? needs like Good luck. In those moments, like, there's no way, like you, like, I feel like you just have to try to make it through with as little disruption as possible in those moments. For me, it's so often staying completely silent. Like, and, and addressing the situation later. And, and but uh, you know, even in silence, there's, like you're putting up so much energy depending on where you're at as a person. And that's trying to like, you know, remain on moved emotionally putting an end to the times physically dangerous behavior whatever way you can. Yeah. And then, and then addressing it later once you've had time to completely calm down and everybody's back down to a place where, you know, there's no point in trying to talk because that's, that's so blown a gasket blown and there's no hearing that no listening in those times, chances are you're not in a mental place to be able to accurately talk without showing off your negative emotions about saying what what their actions do to people and that that hurts. And yeah, we can't hurt our people when we're feeling upset. Like that it's just an absolutely ongoing battle. And I feel like every time you as a father, you blow your gasket and you lose, you lose it, you film that you've lost it. You're and they've, they've seen it again, they know that that thing still lives. And you're back to square one. Trying. Right. And like, I don't know, sometimes it can take a week before it feels like that. That energy that whatever outburst negative outbursts of the dead can actually be gone from the room. Yeah,

that's interesting. Imagine having to take a week. I can, you know,

well, I'm yeah, you know, it's like the it lives now. It lives in their, in their brains, when they do. Aries have this, this and this, then they've got you beat. They've they've got the power over you when you lose control when you lose your mind. If you want them to leave a friend's house at eight o'clock at night, because it's way past bedtime. All they have to do is this and this before you lose control. And then maybe they get the extra 15 minutes while you while you call down from meeting your mind. Yeah.

Yeah. And I doubt it's that rational, like or strategic?

No, it's not. But it deals. Yes.

Right. And I, I, I make assumptions that my kids in those moments are like, Okay, here's my energy, that what do I do with this energy, but because they can't identify and ask that question. They just put it out. And somehow unconsciously they know how to put out in a way that I will take it on them potentially as my energy and they get the watch. What does daddy going to do with it? Because that's what I'm trying to learn.

I like that.

Yeah, it's a practice, for sure. I really enjoyed this conversation, Michael, I know I'm taking away a bunch of things. I wonder if you could share. What's one thing you're taking away from this conversation?

The just that. Those moments where you allow yourself to look at yourself in front of your kid from the outside or whatever glimpse of the moment, and that brief list of opportunities to edit. What happens next, for the better for the positives. More you can allow for those moment as bother. You're just setting yourself up for success. You're giving yourself just that brief Opportunity, keeps things on on track and assessing really what the goal is here. And oftentimes, our instincts have nothing to do with the goal. So many times our instincts and impulses are in direct conflict with if anybody were to press pause and say, What is the goal in the next moment in the neck, very next beat. It's your goal. And if you said that, and then press play and watched your instinct or impulse, yeah, and leaping you, you would say that, probably from the outside, but that reaction was the exact opposite of what your goal was in the solution or the next book forward? Nice.

Yeah, that's well said. I think for me, Michael, I'm picking away a really good insight from something you said earlier on in the conversation about. So don't in my words, it'd be like, when you have become a new father, the beginning of planting those seeds, the impulses that come that say, like I, I'm here to make this child laugh, for example, or to control their experience, and I want to have a baby that acts like this, I'm going to do this, and that doesn't act like this, I'm going to do this. And it having that impulse then sets up this unusual odd dynamic of authority and control that now has become normal years later, even if it still doesn't feel good. And I can wonder where it comes from, I have a little more insight as of this conversation as to where that might have come from. So I appreciate that.

Yeah, it was the same for me, honestly, it takes conversations like this for actually dig that level deeper. And to not just think about what you're doing as a pilot now, but what were those things came from and why? Why so many of our behaviors have been formed around fear and anxiety and control, I cannot say, but it does help to look back and realize that life's hard, challenging times in life, breed those emotions, those emotions, then form habits that infiltrate the rest of your life. And, and then it's either under years of therapy or developing a conscious relationship with those qubits and and at least acknowledging them when they may assess themselves years later, in all sorts of different situations, and just the acknowledgement of negative feelings can oftentimes help you breathe through the lens. Yeah, that is what the process it's not easy.

Yeah. Hello, same way. Well, thank you again, Mike.

Thank you.