#251 - Prepare For The Sandwich Years Of Caring For Children And Aging Parents

Have you ever heard about sandwich? Years? It's a time when you are taking care of your own children, and then your parents are starting to need help. In today's discussion, we'll cover the unique financial challenges faced during this period, practical advice and strategies for managing these responsibilities, and also tips for maintaining your own health and balancing these dual caregiving roles. My guest today is Abbe Large, a managing director at Linux advisors with three decades of experience. She will share her insights and personal experiences to help our listeners navigate this complex and demanding stage of life. Let's tune in. Hey, money, boss parents, welcome back to the money boss parent podcast. I am excited to connect with you today, as I'm joined by Abbe Large, a managing director at Linux advisors, and we're talking about preparing for the sandwich years. And I know many of you are wondering, what are the sandwich years at the very short description right now, it is caring for your own children, and at the same time, caring for your own parents. First of all, Abbe, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

I am excited. So I'd love to start by maybe first you sharing a little bit of your personal journey of why you want to talk about this topic and like, what's the connection with the financial planning?

Well, in 19, I'm sorry, 2019 my father was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and my family lived in Texas. I'm not from Texas, but they moved there, and I did not. So I was the only one that stayed a beast, and I have a family, and I'm deep rooted here, and so when I learned of his illness, there was a lot of travel. There was a lot of coordinating with medical doctors and medicine and physical therapy and occupational therapy and just appointments and all of these things. And years ago, I had purchased a life insurance policy for my father, a Disability Policy for him, and a long term care policy. And so as pancreatic cancer goes, it didn't last very long. Unfortunately, he passed three months after the diagnosis, but those three months were filled with, how do I say this? Not money? The conversation was never evolving around money, because we had these things in place. And so it took the money conversation completely out. And so really what we just focused on is just making sure he was comfortable, and we focused on our family and love. But when you're adding that money conversation into any situation, it becomes really emotional and really toxic and heated and not okay. And so in that during that time, I just experienced exactly the things that I talked to my clients about. I actually experienced in, right? And so when you talk about things versus experiencing them, that's a whole nother level of why. So it became my why, and always has been my why, but it really was like bone deep at this time, right? And so every and it gave me, I'd say, permission to be unapologetic about being so passionate about understanding what my clients need. Needed needs are, even before they can see it. Because some can't, right, they don't. It's like when somebody does die. If you've never had anybody die in your life that was close to you, you really don't understand, like you just don't but when someone does, and then somebody else, it goes through that that you've been through, there's that that there's just that there's nothing better. There's nothing to say except it sucks. It's like, and you get that, um, so yeah, that's, that's been, that's been my why, and that is my purpose, is to talk about it, make sure we're talking about it, because you. Don't want to talk about it when it's too late,

right? And unfortunately, and I know you, you work with clients one on one as well, in helping them kind of see this ahead of time, but, but sometimes we don't get those clients in time right to to have the opportunity to discuss these things right, like these proactive planning steps and proactive planning vehicles to kind of help think about that in advance so in your own story. And I just kind of want to, because I think listeners can see this when you and I'm sure some time ago, when you were putting together these insurance policies for your dad. And this is, you know, I have been to an insurance class, and I am a Certified Financial Planner. So, like, you know why these, you know, tools are important, but you could have not anticipated any of it, right? So, like, you just knew these were the right steps to put in place. And I feel like this is, like one of the disconnect that that clients have is like understanding why these things are important. So can we spend, like, a few minutes maybe going back and what was, what were you thinking about it at that point? Because you could have not envisioned your dad getting sick. Nobody can right? We can't anticipate any of these life

situations. It's a great it's a great question. It's and I thank you for asking it. It's interesting, because

there's risks that are out there in your investment world. As a financial planner, you understand systematic risk, unsystematic risk, there's a new risk that's out there. It's called longevity, right? It's called, Getting sick, getting hurt, everyone's going to die. We all know that. That's a fact. Okay, so let's check the life insurance off the box, like everybody understands that. But in terms of long term care and disability insurance, look the risk products are the foundation. It's like, if you're going to build a home, you've got to lay the foundation that home cannot stand strong without a good foundation. And so that's what insurance is really for, right? It's, it's, you've got to have a strong foundation and not worry about the what ifs the risks that are out there that could totally demolish your plan. And so when people are planning for retirement in their accumulation phase of their life, and then you know, they're saving, and they're saving into their taxable accounts and their tax deferred accounts and their tax free accounts, what's, what's providing all of that, right? Your income

that's at the moment stops.

Then what you know, it's like the end of that movie. Dory, uh. Nemo, sorry, but, yeah, not one. But no, seriously, it's, it's these products are extreme, I think, more just as if not more important than investing for retirement. Because, you know, where do you put the cart before the horse before the cart? So you have to protect your income. That's number one, even when you're very young and you're just starting out, you know, in your 20s and 30s, when you're just starting to have a family, even if you're not having a family, you're, you're, you're independence. So your income provides independence. So it's really you gotta ask clients like, what is it about money that's important to you, and they say security and making sure this. And you can go down that path of your discovery question of, you know, what is important about money to you, but when things happen, you want to make sure that you're focused on, you know, getting better or or making things right versus the money. Because, like I said before, once you bring in that money conversation, it muddies up the waters. It brings in a lot of emotions. But when you can think ahead and know that I'm going to protect myself in the event that I become sick or hurt and I cannot work, I'm going to protect my family, should I die prematurely, and I'm going to protect my children from not having to deal with taking care of me, because the last thing I want. So you think about all these things. And of course, long term care insurance you're purchasing in your 40s and 50s, right? That's, that's the young age to purchase it. But in terms of disability insurance, you need to you need to start thinking about that as soon as you start working. Obviously, as you know, the younger you are, the less expensive it is. But in your accumulation phase of your life, as you rear the corner of your distribution phase of your life, just like you have all of these. Risks, right when you take money out and there's no more money coming in. Now, imagine you're taking money out, no more money coming in, and you can't afford to take money out. So those are the questions that I ask my clients, and if they're bothered by them, or if there's they can't sleep at night because they're thinking about those things. There are products that can transfer that risk over to the insurance carrier. And why wouldn't anyone do that? Because you're paying pennies on the dollar,

right for the for the amount that it could help you not have those conversations like you said, when the situation when the situation happens, exactly,

I

follow, I follow your train of thought and, like, really helpful questions, how? And this is where I've seen this, personally and professionally, like this sort of bridge we have to cross to have this conversation with our parents, right? Because, like, for example, if I am your ideal client, and I've make made sure that my income is protected because I have a five year old, right? Like I have disability insurance, life insurance. I do not have long term care. I'm just, you know, barely in that age group that you said is appropriate. Um, so I feel like I've done the job of making sure that if something were to happen to me, right, like my family, right? That I'm immediately responsible for my son and my husband will be okay now, I gotta cross this bridge and have this conversation with my parents, and it is difficult. I've I've seen it personally, and I've seen it, I've heard it professionally with clients, right? Um, even today, we were just chatting about it before official recording, like a client's inquired about, how do you know? How do we set our life because we're now seeing what our parents didn't do, right? And they're, you know, much older and all of that stuff. So share a little bit about how like do we cross that bridge and introduce these ideas to you know, older generation, right? And are we missing out on maybe doing it sooner? Because if the parent, you know, if the parents, like my parents, are in their late 60s, early 70s, right? So, like, Is this too late to have that conversation

for the 60s and 70 year olds? Yeah, you know, the ideal time to really look at long term care insurance is usually in your late, your 50s, early 50s. But here's the thing, there's, there are now life insurance products that have long term care riders that you can put on to a teenager's policy. So there's really no age restriction with regard to getting some kind of Long Term Care coverage through a whole life policy as a rider that's available out there. And I've, I've shown a lot of clients that product, especially when you know they're, they're they're wanting to lock something in at an early age, but with regard, and here's the thing, as a financial planner, the topic of money, I find fascinating, because people have relationships with money, and their parents have had a relationship with money, with their parents. And so one of the questions that I ask my clients is, what kind of relationship did you have with money and your parents? Like? Did you guys sit around the table and talk about it? Did they tell you what like, did your mother work? Did you did you both, both parents work like? Did you like? What was that? What does that look like? And it's, it's incredible to me, how what people say and what that opens up for them, and typically, for the first time, because I don't think anybody's asking them, What was your relationship like with money growing up with your parents? And so it's it's hard. I've had clients that could never talk to their parents about money. They're so uncomfortable with it. And it's clear to me that they didn't have those, you know, out conversations about money, you know, on the dinner table. They they're just not comfortable with it. So I think the first step is breaking that chain. So as as a young parent, break that chain now, because you're seeing how uncomfortable it is to talk to your parents about an issue that you're going to be dealing with. And by the way, you can always, if you have that relationship, and if you have that opening, you can always say to your you know, your parents, look, this is this is not for you, per se, but it's for me, because I'm the one that's going to be taking care of you. This is for me, and I don't know, I find that parents, when it's phrased that way, they don't want to be a burden to their children. I don't know one parent that wants to be a burden. I have. Found one yet true. So if you find one, let me know. That would be a rare thing. But most parents don't want to be a burden, so the first step is break that chain yourself, make sure that you're preparing. You're talking to your children about money. You're talking They're watching you pay bills. They're watching you work. They're watching you talk about it in a healthy way with your with your significant other, lead by example, right for the next generation. Now you you can either step it up and have that conversation with your parents if you think it's comfortable, or you can't. I don't know if there's an in between. And so if you can have that conversation with your parents, then that would be something that you as a financial professional would be able to solve, right? But it's a matter of communicating the the the conclusion of their decisions and how it affects you, and I think that that's important to talk about if you're able to talk about it. But at the end of the day, I think the takeaway for everyone, and that's listening, is to break the chain, and if it bothers you that you can't talk about money to your parents, then don't make it so that your kids are bothered talking about it with you. I love that.

Yes, I do, and I'm very big supporter of the making sure that the younger generation, and I think maybe that's just personal experience, like I want to make sure that my son does have the skills right necessary to be able to just simple things like talk about money. We're not talking about anything, you know, four or five year old grand at the moment, in terms of, you know, the real financial skills, but just just that simple conversation, um, what? What would you say? Like, if we're thinking about personal finances, and, like, approaching this topic with your parents, right? And it's really more inquiring, like, I just want to make sure you know You're okay, right? Like, these are the simple, like, a simple opening question, like, what would be, in your opinion, an angle in this conversation. Do we talk about, like, how much money they have? What are their resources? Or, you know, whether it's their income, or do we go into the more complex, like, the estate planning, right? Because that, that conversation also brings up a lot of like, feelings allow around longevity and morbidity. So, like, where would you go with this, if this was the first time you're approaching it,

for you or for your or for

anyone, just anyone, yeah, for anyone, anyone in the in these kinds of situations?

Well, I don't it's, it's, it's a little hard to answer, because I don't know the perfect like, I don't know the situation, but in a perfect world, I'll preface it that way. In a perfect world, if you have a relationship with your parents and you feel that it's a good one, I would start with love. I would start with, I love you, and I want to, I want to be here for you for the rest of your life, and I want you to be in my life, but in a healthy way. And there will be a time where I'm going to probably have to take care of you and make sure you're okay, and I want to be able to do that better and wiser and without complications. So having said that, have you done any planning? Can start with that, just ask the question, have you done any planning? And then get into the conversation. That's how I would approach it, like I'm here for you. I love you, but let's do this together, because you're not alone, and I don't want you to be alone. I want you to be as independent as you possibly can be, because long term care, by the way, it's about living your life in your own terms.

That's really what it is. I love that definition, because I think a lot of people think it's like, what happens to me, like, at the very, very end, and how all that folds, which is true, right? Like, if, if that's part of it, but I like your definition better,

yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's true, it's, it's what it is, and I and it's just a fact of life. I mean, it's just listen, if, if longevity is part of the risks that are out there, just like market risk and inflation risk and interest rate risk, well, why can't you talk about longevity risk? It's a real thing. So you can go that route. To make it more business, like factual that way. Or you can combine the two, right? I mean, that's, that's how I would approach it, having said that, if you have people who are like, there's no way on the face of this planet, I'm talking to my parents about their finances. Well, Sol folks, I don't know what to say, yeah,

no, and it's probably more not that the clients don't want to have the conversations. It's maybe the parents don't want Sure,

yeah, they can't and and that would fuel, I would hope that would fuel that gen two to make sure they never do that to Gen three.

Well, for sure, 1,000% right? Yeah, yeah, yes. I agree. I agree with that. So how would like? Because not most everybody can get to a point where they, you know, have these conversations, prepare ahead of time. So what? How can you prepare if you find yourself that you know that your parents aren't quite ready for those risks that you discuss. Like, what can you do financially? Because at the same time you might be raising your family right? You're saving for your own retirement, you're saving for your kids education, and there's life happening. So like, how? Like, it's a balancing act. How do we how do we balance that,

financially, emotionally, which part let's,

let's, let's touch on all of them. Because I think, I think it's, it's a, it's a great angle. Let's talk about, let's talk, let's talk about it. Emotionally,

emotionally. How do you prepare for what in particular?

How do you prepare emotionally to balance living your own life, saving you for your own goals, raising children, and also at the same time, knowing that maybe your parents aren't quite ready for you know, for their golden years?

Well, you gotta set your boundaries. It's really that simple. I mean, at the end of the day, you're an adult, they've raised. Your parents, you know, clearly have raised in the goal is to raise an independent, financially independent, emotionally independent, you know, respectful, kind, human being out in the world, right? I and I think that,

I just think talking about money to the older generation, and juggling all of these things, juggling your life at a certain point, they have to be clear that you have a life too, and that you can't just be here for them. They've raised you to be this person and you are this person with responsibilities and your own family, and just explain to them, I love you, but like, I have my own family and I can't do that. You need help. Let's look at some help. Now, that's where long term care comes in, because you have to pay for help. You know what I'm saying? So you have to decide if you're the kind of family that will hire the help. There are some people that no way know how they will hire help. No way, no way. Am I allowing I mean, these are conversations you need to have up front. These are conversations that need to be had. You know, you were talking earlier, and I'm having a hard time answering these questions, because I don't know if the person on the other end is either a cow or a buffalo, and I don't know if you know what I mean by that, but when you're a buffalo, you head into the storm. Just head into the storm. If you're a cow, you're going to run away from the storm, and that storm is going to eventually catch up to you, and your pain and suffering is going to be really long, but the buffalos, they run through it. So I would say, be a buffalo. These conversations are very difficult. They're very uncomfortable. But if you don't have the conversation, it will be more difficult and more uncomfortable. If you just run with the storm, run towards it, run through it. I love this analogy.

I love this analogy a lot. I'm going to make sure I can use it in the future. For sure, we touched on this a little bit, but how do you discuss, like, the importance of estate planning? Because I also find that that's another area where there's some challenges for people to not just to communicate, but. Actually execute, and I'm talking about making sure, like, for example, for your for your parents, they have a proper estate plan in place. They have a will if they need a trust. Maybe, you know, the durable power of attorney and health Advanced Health Care Directive. So, like, because that also right, will be needed in all of these stages of our life. So how do you like talk a little bit about how do you have conversations with clients about that? Well,

if anyone's 18 or above, they need a will power of attorney and a healthcare proxy, because if you don't, and you wind up in a coma, guess what? No one is going to pull that block. No one is going to have any say whatsoever in your health care. No one's going to be able to sign a check on your behalf. No one is going to be able to make decisions on your behalf. And if that's what you want, then by all means, don't get a will. But that that that is the first and foremost thing that I say like you have to I ask everybody, do you have a will of attorney and health care proxy, especially for families that have kids that are in high school, that are turning 18, and then they go off to college, they have to have their HIPAA forms signed or else their doctors won't be able to talk to them. So in terms of estate planning, I mean, at the end of the day, all you have to do is waive the tax bill in front of your parents or whoever, just wait for tax bill. And there are solutions, my friends, there's like, you can buy products that are pennies on the dollar to pay the estate taxes, but this lack of coordination will it's, it's, it's a real shame when there's a death in the family and there's been zero planning, it's just, it breaks my heart to see because it's so avoidable. It's so avoidable. So, yeah, healthcare proxy, power of attorney, these, you know, all the estate planning docs, the whether you want to put in, you know, assets into trust or non assets. I mean, we right now have an opportunity to gift a lot of money until the end of 2025 when it sunsets, and then, you know, we're back to what six or $7 million per person. Just 5 million, adjusted for inflation, it's going to be six or seven. I think now it's 13 million and change, right? So, I mean, I don't think we'll ever see that amount of gifting privilege in our life, in your my lifetime, that is an enormous amount of money to be able to transfer to the wealth to the next generation in a tax efficient way, by using these, you know, trusts, and speaking to a trust and estate attorney about that, but there's no better time to do it. In fact, if you're just thinking about it now, you might be too late, because all the attorneys are booked with all the planning that's happening right now. But it's real simple. Just wave tax bill in front of your family and just say, like, this is what you're going to have us pay within nine months. This is what's going to happen. We have to pay this. Do you want that? If the answer is no, well then there you have it.

I love that trick, too. And it's also like, I think clients at times say, Oh, I have done my estate plan 20 years ago. I'm like, okay, great. But that's 20 years ago, right? So I think it's checking in on it. If you haven't done anything time to do it, but if you have done it a long time ago, things have changed. And so yes, yeah, that's

I always hear that you're right. I You're exactly right. Listen, if your situation hasn't changed, the tax laws change. Yeah, just, just as simple as

that, there's, there's change is there's change happening all the time on whether we whether we know it or we don't. So, yeah, I just, I think this is because that's the one part that also gives the sandwich generation families, right? A lot of stress, a lot of all kinds of things that could be prevented, right? If, if done properly, I kind of want to transition a little bit and think ahead and so like, if someone just kind of starting to fall into this phase of the Sam was generation, and I found interesting statistic just, just for the, you know, for entertainment on the show. But in the study done in 2021 23% of US adults are now part of Samuel generation. So I'm sure it's probably a little little more. Now we're in 2024 so that's a that's a pretty big number. I was just curious, like, All right, what's what is it? And so how do you define assemblage generation? So it's someone who's between ages 40 and 59 so it's just the age definition. But we even talked about this Abbe before the recording like you could be, you could find yourself being part of the sandwich generation even before the a certain age. So if you kind of like just crossing into this or starting to see things developing like, what would you recommend you know, for like, how do you start to navigate these things, aside from just having conversations with, you know,

parents, navigating what specifically,

when you finding yourself in in in this situation, when you're raising a family, and you starting to see that your parents are aging, how do you kind of like start to what do you start to think about your own personal finances? Yeah? Like, just practical.

Yeah, I understand. So I sorry I wasn't understanding exactly what you're asking. I think I'm a little older than you. So you know, I think what you're asking is, how did you know to do all that stuff for your dad so early? But because I do what I do, right? You're a financial planner, so we need to tell our clients, you need to start planning now for for your children, and you need and if your parents can afford to do it themselves, then you need to do it for them, because at the end of the day, you're really doing it for yourself. If you think about it, right, right? So my father and mother, they could not afford these products. They were on a modest income, and I, and I was in a Luckily in a financial position, I was able to buy these policies for on them. But for me, there's a big difference there on them, but for me, and so that's really if, if you're if you could economically swing that, that is the answer.

Can you clarify for the listeners? Because if somebody is a client and we're working together, we certainly will have that conversation. But maybe, if someone is out there, is that a client yet? So when you say, on them, and for me, what does that mean? Just in in practical,

thank you. That's Thank you for clarifying, making me clarify. Buy insurance by life, disability, long term care, annuities, whatever, all you can buy on your parents, they can be the insured, but you can be the beneficiary on everything, right? So you buy the insurance on them, and when they need it, you get the money. Does that make sense? It does

yes, no. And then that that can be, do you think that would make sense? I think it does. It helps, it helps you financially. Because if you're kind of like that sandwich in the middle which are part of that sandwich you are, you get to use the resources to help take care of them. Yeah. I

mean, I also want to go back to something that you said earlier, you said that there are people that had done their planning 20 years ago and they haven't thought about it, etc. I think that that answer is, that answer is an objection. It's an objection to, I don't want to deal with this right now. They just don't want to deal with it. And so I think it's, it's really important to understand that, that that trigger point when they say, No, I done that 20 years ago. I'm all sad kind of a thing, and you're like, but your life hasn't changed. I just, I want to go back to that for a hot second, because it's important that is that's a trigger moment, that moment in time when someone says that to you, it should be this thought of, okay, they really have no interest in going there. And so I find it important to stop in that moment and try to dig a little deeper there, because it's important for people to to dig up that stuff and open the file and open the door to that conversation and not in other words, they're, they're they're exhibiting behavior, which is avoidance. And it's our jobs, and those that are listening to say, let's not avoid this conversation anymore. Let's let's face it head on and and let's do this kindly and professionally, and if you don't have the wherewithal to the financial means to fix it on the on the gen one level, then maybe gen two solves that problem and pays for it, because at the end of the day, you are doing this so that you can remove that money conversation out of the equation, which is exactly. Actually what I did with my family, it's exactly what I do with my dad, right? And this conversation is kind of coming full circle now, because at the end of the day, it was about seeing something happening down the road and having the wherewithal and the financial means to be able to fix that problem before we saw the crash, so it made the crash that was less painful, painful nonetheless, but less a little less painful. Oh, less

painful. I agree. Um, for the time we have today. I was wondering if there are resources or tools that you suggest to your clients. I know some people need time to think and listen and read. I know what we want them is to move and act. But is there a resource that you can recommend or a tool for the listeners today?

Yeah, they call me. Okay, that's it. I love you. I

love your direct approach, and I think that's what most people need. I could, I could totally, I could totally align with you on that.

Yeah. I mean, what else did they get? You can Google anything you want, but at the end of the day, you have to call a professional. You have to call somebody that's been there, done, that knows what to do and cares about you. That's the most important thing.

I love that. So okay, so how can our listeners connect with you?

They can connect with me through LinkedIn or my or the website, lenoxadvisors.com that's 1n, l, E, N, O, X, A, D, V, i, s, O, R, S, not ers. lenoxadvisors.com or they can email me at alarge@lenoxadvisors.com or they can connect with me on LinkedIn.

Awesome. Thank you so much, and I will make sure that we include this in the show notes. Any parting thoughts before we close?

Parting thoughts? Yes, head into the storm. Be a buffalo. It's okay to be afraid. It's only a conversation you're having with yourself. But it's better to talk these things through when you can foresee things happening versus when you're in the moment. It's it's really important. So to your listeners, via buffalo, I love it. Thank you so much. Welcome. Thank you for having me.