As the mortgage sector navigates new FINTRAC regulatory requirements, dive into unique insights from the ReallyTrusted team, with insights from Catagay Sen and Taylor Cameron. With the recent expansion of FINTRAC oversight to mortgage brokers, both professionals share critical observations on challenges faced by designated individuals and principal brokers in implementing compliance measures. Taylor’s experience speaking to new and potential clients’ sheds light on common misconceptions, while Catagay offers a deep dive into the evolving, policy-specific concerns mortgage brokerages encounter. Together, they discuss the ways ReallyTrusted is helping client’s approach FINTRAC compliance with clarity and confidence, helping ensure these new requirements are met effectively.
This episode offers an essential look at the early days of FINTRAC’s regulations in the mortgage sector, uncovering valuable insights for brokerages looking to stay compliant and prepared.
Key Takeaways:
- Many mortgage brokerages face challenges understanding their role under FINTRAC regulations.
- Designated individuals often need help crafting policies tailored to new compliance standards.
- Misunderstandings are common around what data must be recorded and reported.
- Brokerages frequently underestimate the time and resources required for full compliance.
- ReallyTrusted provides tailored programs to help brokerages meet compliance requirements efficiently.
Connect with Greg and Really Trusted at:
https://www.facebook.com/ReallyTrusted/
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#FINTRAC #MortgageCompliance #RealEstateCompliance #RegulatoryStandards #ReallyTrusted #ComplianceManagement #BrokerageCompliance #KnowYourCompliance #FINTRACExpress
All right, welcome to another episode of The Know Your
Compliance podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Today. I'm
going to be interviewing Cagatay Sen from the really trusted
team. He's our FINTRAC Express program lead, and Taylor
Cameron, who's our manager of business development. And the
topic I wanted to bat around today is something that we
actually are uniquely positioned to talk about, and that's
specifically how things are going in the mortgage sector in
the first three ish weeks now, depending on when you're
listening to this of their quote coverage under the fin track,
regs. So let me kind of give us give our audience a bit of
framing here, Taylor spends most of her day most weeks, chatting
with potential clients, people who have realized that they need
to know more about FINTRAC. They reporting entities across both
the real estate and the mortgage sectors primarily, and develops
some interesting insights around their beliefs at that stage,
chat. I spends most of his life chatting with brokerages who
have chosen to hire us, and gets really granular on their fin
track compliance policies. And so what I was hoping to bring to
our audience today is the insights that Taylor and Chad I
have brought or have gleaned through the last three Well,
actually, we've been we launched this kind of mostly about a
month ago. Now today's date is November 1, but we launched. So
we launched this the big roughly the beginning of October, where
we really started talking with a lot of brokerages specific
around their policies. So with all of that long intro, let's
get into it. Taylor, let's start with you. Can you give me three,
four, maybe five, things that you've observed as the feedback
that mortgage brokerages, the designated individuals,
principal brokers, depending on how you want to call them, what
they're seeing as the challenges in their fin track compliance
programs?
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I don't
even know if we can say that they're seeing it, or rather,
what I'm seeing, because I don't. I think we, I think we've
got two populations. I think we've got the the population
that doesn't know what they don't know. And then as as we're
moving through this, we have the population that knows there's a
lot they don't know. So I feel like some of the bigger things,
I think, that I'm seeing just as a general as a whole, is that we
have a lot of individual brokers going in and finding their own
IDD software that works for them individually, and they're not
referencing back to our Di's and our principal brokers to find
out what is actually indicated as what we're using in our
policy and procedure manuals. So that's a big piece. I feel like
a lot of we've got a lot of designated individuals waiting
for templates to come from associations. And, I mean, we
can certainly dive into that topic a little more. Yeah, I
think
that's worth coming back to for sure. Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
What are some other things here? And I think
the other common thread is that we are hearing, I'm a small
brokerage. All of my clients are repeat. They're all low risk.
I've dealt with them for years and or that I'm so small that,
you know what I really, you know, I don't really need to do.
This is another unique and interesting perspective in the
industry. So, I mean, those are some of the things that come top
of mind.
Okay, so the overarching things I think are,
are generally a lack of, perhaps frontline staff seeing IDV as
being the entirety or the bulk of their obligations or and
whether that's true or not, as a conversation we'll have in a
second, but, but really being focused on that IDV part di is
thinking that Maybe templates are going to solve this for
them, and then going back to the frontline staff. Well, actually,
this is kind of where frontline staff and Di's need to get on
the same page. Is what is a low risk individual and what is risk
and how is risk identified?
Okay? And it's not a tech box determination,
right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, and we'll sorry. We'll come back to that.
I want to open up the conversation to chat. I see what
he's seeing on the other side, people who have chosen to engage
with us for either of the two reasons Taylor has identified,
maybe they know they have a problem, they need some help, or
they don't know they have a problem, but they need some
help. What are you seeing in those in those meetings, when
you're doing that consult, when you're creating the policy
manuals, where are you finding the the real challenges that the
eyes and brokerages are facing?
Right? Yes, so I've had several meetings now, and
one of the issues. That I've seen pop up regularly is that
these guys, up until now, have been used to having the lenders
do all the pretty much, you know, burdensome work of ID
verification, etc, ensuring that the proper controls were in
place to properly identify the clients things like that, and
they never touched based on any client funds, either. They see
they do not do that. So one of the issues now that with the
financial competition coming to play as of october 11, is that
they are a bit nervous as to how they're going to go through this
process, because they are the front line now to do this, I
mean, the assurance that I try to give them naturally is that
we as really trusted, are here to assist them along the way
from our systems that are going to be in place for the ID
verification, etc. And that's where Taylor, I agree with you,
some have already started to, in the past, utilize some IDV third
party applications, but I always assist them that you know you
because the question pops up sometimes that they also asked
whether they need another application for this purpose. I
said you don't, because when you sign up for our program, you're
getting full coverage as to the systematic capabilities of the
app, etc. So all the ID verification, remote ID
verification applications are going to be in place, and that's
going to be covered in respect of your sanction is controlled,
peppers, controls, etc. We're going to ensure that you know
your database is going to be covered respect your high risk
of monitoring obligations, your adverse media control, which
will come into play, which, you know, really gives them a good
insight into what we can do for them, etc. And the training
aspect is very exciting for them, I see, especially they
want to have this as soon as possible training, because they
want to create that much shift in mindset for their
underwriters, their you know, associates, etc. We're going to
be dealing with the client information, the files, etc.
They want to understand what those indicators are going to
be. How do you risk great clients? Especially this is
something that all. I also underline many times that it's
okay to risking your clients as high as clients, because if you
don't in the future, and you have a possible field track
examination coming through, and they identify something, where
you they go in the field that should have been read as a high
risk client, then you're going to be in trouble. So I am going,
I'm reiterating throughout these meetings that risk rating your
clients is high risk is okay, and it's important for you. And
I also give them the example that you know, there's some
perception that if you risk a high risk client, then somehow
regulator authorities are going to know about this, etc, and
they're going to flag their clients and actually may pick,
carry out further orders and things like that. Is not the
case in terms, of course, but it is to ensure that, you know, you
have the proper controls in place to keep that business
relationship, you know, and under taps throughout that time.
Yeah.
No, that's interesting. So if I can unpack
what, what I've just heard you say that I think was really
interesting is kind of two pieces there. One, a lot of
these mortgage entities were already aware of some of the
anti money laundering stuff because of their upstream
relationships, and had been relying on those upstream
relationships. Well, relying is too strong word. Actually, just
knew they could ignore that part of the world because of those
upstream relationships, and they were right and there. But the
result of that, and this is where I'm particularly
interested to hear this, is they're now they realize they
have these obligations. They're taking them very seriously.
Their excitement around training is amazing and awesome, and so
wonderful to see is very refreshing, in fact. But they
they're not necessarily understanding all of the the
specific part around this risk, risk rating clients, and that's
something Taylor touched on as well. This this challenge that
frontline staff in particular have around appropriately risk
rating clients, and realizing that that's not a bad thing, and
realizing that that's actually what you want, and and realizing
that just because you know them doesn't mean they're low risk,
which is something you know, we've been we've been struggling
with as a company, with our with our real estate brokerages for
years. In fact, it's not an uncommon conversation to be
having. In fact, I had this conversation the beginning of
this week when I was presenting one of our brokerage partners
where that's exactly what the agent said, and I had to walk
them through how the flaws in their thinking on that. So no,
that's interesting, and really kind of appreciate the feedback
on that. So let's pick through. Let's start at the beginning.
There's kind of four or five areas there that I've heard
everybody kind of talk about. So let's talk about this IDV thing.
Taylor, you brought this up as as something that we're seeing
kind of a fragmented use of IDV solutions is perhaps the
language there and chat. I You brought this up as you know,
what other programs are people going to have to use? So what's
the like? I mean, obviously I know the answer to this, but I
don't want to just battle on Chad. I What is your view?
You're the you're the fin track program expert, you guys, you're
the one doing the consults. Is it okay to be using various IDV
solutions? Do? Is that what we want to encourage? We want to
discourage that. What would your view be on that?
Well, I mean, as really trusted, we're providing
a, you know, turnkey solution in respect to the establishing the
compliance program, and which is not necessarily just, you know,
preparing the documentation and placing in a folder and handing
it over to the client. We're ensuring that with the
systematic tools in place as well. Hence the IDV solution
which we're providing, we're giving a complete program and
where they're able to utilize the app with the convenience of
having available on their forms, etc, and ensuring that, you
know, they trust us in the properly you know, carrying out
those controls in the background for our systematic databases,
and also the added the you know, comfort of carrying out the
sanctions control Purpose controls. Which have we in place
as well, etc. So I definitely underlie the message when I
really think, when I received a question like this, is, you
don't need any other solution. You might have done so in the
past for any other purpose, just to have the completed some of
your mortgage loan records. Perhaps, I don't know that would
have been your own choice at that time, but as you're signing
with really trusted and you're signing for the fin track
Express program, you have to be trusting us and ensuring that
you know we do the proper thing for you guys, which is the
documentation, the training modules, the whole IRT app
solution, which we provide and plus, on the other hand, for
your high risk clients, the address media controls and
monitoring tools that we provide for you in a monthly basis, etc.
Plus, I also underlined the fact that, for example, in a possible
future control examination when, if and when they receive such
requests for information in the form of an E car, a podcast, a
subject we covered in the past? Yeah, we are always here to
assist them as well, so that they are assured that you know
they're properly discussing those questions, so that Finch
doesn't necessarily need to go into any further detail, or
might actually leave it at that at that point.
Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say, and I think I'm
going to bring Taylor into this in a second, but what I'm
hearing you say is that the the importance of having IDV is
actually just a small part of that frontline staff, and the
real kind of key about what we're offering is, in fact, the
integration of all of the thinking into one platform in a
meaningful way. Taylor, is that ringing true to the people
you're talking with? Is that? Is that what you're hearing, what
are the benefits that you're seeing that maybe chat I hasn't
touched on and or what are the drawbacks to that approach? I
suppose? Yeah, I
think really important to talk about the
drawbacks too. So I agree with everything that Chad has said,
but one of the drawbacks in using multiple streams of an IDV
is that, how are you then providing consistency in the way
that we are doing risk determinations? If we're using
two different programs, they might be, you know, the value
systems might be different or off. So trying to get a
continuity across those systems and then being able to document
it, I think you're going to run into a big challenge when it
comes to an audit and the questions that are going to be
asked of you, and how these two different groups, if there's two
different softwares, how these two different groups are aligned
in doing those risk determinations. So I'd say
that's a challenge. And again, I just think it comes back to
education. I don't think that we are fully grasping yet in the
mortgage industry, what FINTRAC is really about, and that there
has to be a continuity across all of your pillars, that
whatever you have done in terms of risk determinations is how
and tied into, sorry, you want to, I can see, well, I
just want to jump in, because you mentioned pillars,
and I some of our pillars, and I some of our audience may or may
not be familiar with the concept. So let's just unpack
that for a second, if you would just just walk people through
that the five what
we call the five pillars. Yeah, so you know the
five pillars and what a program should entail as a documented
compliance officer, kind of easy, but there are some
specific traits and skills that you. Going to want to see in the
person that you put forward is that, because there has to be
enough AML knowledge to be able to properly roll that out and a
few other things. And we've got a great training program on that
and webinar that you can join. And don't know when the next
date is Greg, but sure, we'll roll that out again. You need to
have a documented policy and procedure segment, documenting
everything that you say you're going to do, and then procedures
allocated to each of those two areas. So we have two in our
program. We have two procedure manuals. One is going to be for
our front facing licensees. Front facing, I mean client
facing licensees. And then one we have on the back end, which
supports all of our compliance or admin staff on the back end,
any anyone touching administrative documentation for
vendor Act. The other pillar then becomes training. And then
we have the effectiveness review, which comes around every
two years. I think I've hit that right. We've got the compliance
officer your documented policies, training,
effectiveness review and risk. No,
there you go. Yeah, that's the one you're missing.
What you've just walked people through, in fact, is crucial to
a business's opera, ability to have a complete compliance
program, right? And, and what you've just walked people
through, whether, whether, and it's subtle, but so let me kind
of delve into this exactly. Touches on this, next two things
that you had identified in the opening to this, which was a
templates don't really work and or create a bunch of additional
challenges. And the the other thing you had talked about was
this idea of of risk rating your clients, and the importance of
risk rating your clients. And so what you've just highlighted for
me is is both of those things, because, on the one hand, it's
basically impossible for you to have a consistent risk rating
process if you're using several different methods of creating
information records, client information records, and now I
should put a bit of an asterisk in there. Our view of client
information records are that IDV are a small part, or are a part
of that client information record, and it's important to do
your IDE verification properly, no question. But we've bundled
it into the rest of the client information record, because
that's generally how people are engaging with their clients. And
the beauty of that is, if I can go back to the other thing
you've said, which is the templates and the importance of
weaving it all together is that when we weave that together
operationally, we can then have a very clear answer to what is a
low risk client. And you just can't do that. If you're picking
somebody else's manual up and using it as your own, it just
doesn't work. And I think that's the, that's the crux of one of
the things that I've heard, like both of you say that that is
the, and we spend a lot of time talking about this as a business
with a lot of different people, is the specificity of your
compliance program for your business is really, really
important. Yeah,
and Greg, to add to that point, I am very happy that
we have a lot of buy in from these mortgage brokers and
companies, etc, in respect of the development of the
compliance program. Of course, the first step being that when I
attain the appropriate information regarding their
business and further insight into the risk, etc. I am
responsible for the establishment of the
documentation. And when I share the draft manuals, it's not just
merely, oh, thank you. Let's move on. Kind of thing they want
to ensure that you know it properly reflects the ongoing
business model that they have. Ensure that you know that the
all the information which is in the documentation is properly
and easily understood by the staff, we're going to be able to
revert to that when the time comes, etc. So I'm very happy
that there, these guys are putting a lot of buy in into the
development of these documentation just not merely
accepting them because it's a requirement of the French leg
obligations kind of thing? Yeah,
yeah. No, it is. And that's, that's one of the things
I first, my first bit of feedback to you was that you're
absolutely right. Like it's been, it's been really nice to
see how and I think it comes from being in a business where
there was already a culture of compliance. Compliance as a
concept isn't new to the mortgage sector. There are
there's lots of check boxes and signed forms and things that
need to happen for you to be able to process a mortgage deal.
And I think that is more true for mortgage entities. Then it
historically has been, necessarily, for the real estate
sector. And we could, we could talk about that, and that's a
whole host of problems on the real estate side of things. So
kind of what's got side of the scope of today's conversation.
But certainly, and I think what you've just highlighted for me
is exactly that, that like these are businesses that really do
want to have a good compliance posture on this stuff. They
really don't want to be helping criminals launder money for lack
of like, if we can go back to the brass acts of what this is
all about, they take that obligation seriously, I think is
what I'm hearing you say. Is that reflected in the
conversations you're having as well? Taylor,
yeah. I mean, again, going back to one of the
comments I made earlier, that we have this, this population that
don't really know what they don't know yet. And then we have
the ones that know that there are things that they don't know.
And it's, it's the ones that don't know what they don't know
that I have the most fear for. You know, not completely
understanding what it is that we're trying to do, not having
enough knowledge to be able to understand the complexities of
it and putting a full and complete program together. And
then I think once we give them a little education, they go, Oh,
crap, there's a lot more to this than we actually initially
realized. And I think that's the place that, that's what we
should be aiming for right now, is to be able to educate this
market, or sort of this industry, to really allow them
to understand what it is that we're doing here and the way
that we need to be doing it, as well as the wise like, I mean,
it was, I had a I had a consult just The other day, who said, I
only do repeat business. Been doing this a long time. Further
along into the conversation we were talking about I had shared,
I've been a realtor for 16 years, and shared how once I've
been with really trusted almost a year now, but coming out of
the training that we provided, I look back on my career and was
like, Holy crap. There's at least a half dozen individuals
or clients that should have been marked as something more than a
low risk and including a suspicious transaction. And he's
like, You know what? Now that you say that I did have this one
incident where somebody, it was a part of a drug cartel,
somebody was knocked off. And the the remaining partners in
this business setup came to me and and, and I'm like, did you
ever like, Did you do anything with that information? He's
like, No, I was scared. And I you know. But the point is, is
that this conversation started with, I know all of my clients,
we are all risk going to they had somebody that was knocked
off. I'm like, okay, need I say more? So
I would suggest to you that there will be a
slightly higher level of risk in this transaction, and you became
aware of it at some point in time. Whether that was before or
after, the deal is somewhat irrelevant. You still had some
sort of ongoing obligation here. So,
yeah, so, I mean, it's been interesting, and
I think if I can just touch on this, because I have, I've have
such passion about this, is that we have to remember this is
called money laundering, for a reason. This is the people that
we are dealing with. This has gone through several channels.
We're not dealing with the head of a cartel. We it's gone
through several channels before. We are front facing with whoever
it is that individual is. They're there to put down our
defenses. They're there to be likable and really not want us
to dive in and want us to believe the best in them. That's
the whole purpose. So we can't go blindly into this and just
say, really like them, you know that you know nothing we need to
do the due diligence. We need to do that little extra bit of
questioning and looking into this to make sure that we're not
on, you know, we're not offside on on what they are trying to
accomplish.
Now you've just said we need to do this, and I
completely agree with you, but some portion of the audience
always says, right? But that's not my job. I'm not a police
officer. How? How do each of you I have one response that I hope
that somebody would say, but what would your answers be to
that? Maybe chat. I do you want to take a crack at that and give
us your thoughts on that.
Well, this is, yeah, indeed, something that has
come across, perhaps mostly in the real estate council meetings
I had naturally. But I like to give this as well and just
basically saying that you may feel that you're doing the work
of the work of the regulatory authorities, etc. But I was
telling that you know you are providing basically valuable
intelligence information, which may be only one piece of the
puzzle, but when you fulfill your obligation, especially in
regards to something unusual, especially. Services, and you're
submitting STR defense, right? That is very valuable
information, which may, in the end, end up at the hands of the
law enforcement agencies, etc, and they may bring down the all
criminal gang, etc, things like that. So everybody has their
proper role in respect of this process. Yes, it may be a burden
just doing the additional control here and there, etc. But
I mean, it is not something that they have to feel like they're
doing alone, especially with the French work expense program that
they signed up for. We were trusted. We have a whole support
test, which is backing up their whole day to day activities.
They just have to give us a call or send an email, and we always
available to always provide that legislative guidance,
elaboration as to what they have to do. They're not alone. It's
something new for them. They don't necessarily feel like they
have to do it at first instance, but this is what I said one day,
that should shift the mindset happens. And that will happen
with the day to day experiences, the training, awareness, etc.
Things will be built up, etc. And they will then feel more
comfortable that they have to be doing this, etc, and they want
to be doing this, and they will be benefiting the whole system
in general, in that regard.
Lovely. And I completely buy into that part of
things. And I think it's really important to call out that good
compliance is actually just good business. I mean, as a business,
I don't want to be working with a criminal for all sorts of
reasons, reputational risk, fraud risk increases. Like they
just the effort. And I guess here's the like from a from I
think there's, like, some obvious, really good to society
parts of things, and you've just kind of really well elaborated
on that, in fact. But I think beyond that, just like, Let's go
really selfish for a second. I'm running a business. It costs me
money when I spend a bunch of time working with somebody who
ends up being fraudulent and I therefore don't get paid, or end
up getting dragged into a lawsuit, or getting up get out,
being investigated by somebody having a production order,
having to spend the time to deal with the production order before
I even get to the reputational risk of being the guy who gets
published in the newspaper as the one who was involved in the
drug trafficking ring and all those things. So there's,
there's both, I think, a really good to society, part of things
that that just, well, look, you have an obligation, and so you
might as well. But also, from a good business point of view, it
is insane to me that a reporting entity would willfully choose to
not put into in place some form of safeguards to protect
themselves against all of the elements of fraud that might be
perpetrated within their business otherwise. So I think
there's kind of the both sides of that, to me, are really
powerful. I'm looking at the clock. Taylor, you look like
you've got something you want to wrap up. Go ahead. Yeah, and I
would
just wanted to say, you know, we it is like
chat. I said it is a piece of a puzzle. So when we have, you
know, the banking system doing a report on somebody, and then,
you know, the conversations are having with a bank versus the
conversations clients are having with me as a realtor, when I'm
showing a property, everything is really relaxed. Their guard
is down. Is then a different conversation that they're having
with a mortgage broker, and it is a piece of a puzzle. And I
think we also have these two thoughts that, you know what,
when we report something, it goes into a dark void, and we
never know anything that happens. And then we have the
other school of thought that is, oh, my God, I'm gonna risk
somebody as high or assessment as a high risk, and you know,
they're, you know, CIA is gonna come banging on their door and,
you know, tear apart their home. And the reality is, is that we
are not going to know. We're not always going to know the impact
that we have. You know, Greg and I, you and I have traveled a lot
in the in September, when we sat at tables and rubbed shoulders
with a lot of people from chinchak, and their ability to
disclose a lot of information is also withheld, so similar to, if
we have witnessed an accident and and we take somebody and
drop them off at a hospital, we are not privileged to their
medical well being after we drop them off, but we have to know
that we had an impact. And so I think that's just, I just wanted
to end on that note, that we all have a piece of the puzzle to
create and build and and we should all take it seriously and
and that we are doing something for the betterment of our, of
all of us,
that's a really positive way to end this. So
thank you for that. I love it. That's terrific. All right,
guys. Well, thank you very much. Taylor, thank you. Thank you
very much. Chant, I really appreciate you both joining me
and having this conversation. I do hope that for our listening
audience, you'll be able to take away some thoughts as to if
you're a mortgage entity listening to this, I hope you've
you're considering what we've said from your point of view.
Um. Um and and you know, if any of what what we've said rings
true as challenges you might be facing, give us a shout. We're
happy to help. That's that's certainly what we do. If you're
looking at this, if you're not a mortgage entity and you're
you've listened this far, well, thank you for joining us. I hope
that we've managed to to give you some insight into it, a
different sector of the world, and managed to help you
understand how other people are grappling with their reporting
obligations, as it were. Thank you very much. Folks. Have a
wonderful day.
Thanks everyone.