Stepping into the Light: Confronting Teen Suicide Risks with AnneMoss Rogers

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are here today. Today's topic is one that is definitely more serious. One that is vitally, vitally important, especially for those of us with LGBTQ plus kids. Today we are going to be talking about suicide prevention. September is National Suicide Prevention Month. And I know we've talked a lot about numbers and statistics and facts and real life stories. According to the Trevor Project, 41% of LGBTQ young people considered suicide just in the past year. And we know that that number has gone up from the 2022 national survey that they did. We know. We understand why the numbers are the way that they are. And I think that this is a really vitally important distinction to make and to make sure that everybody really really understands that LGBTQ youth are not prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity. They are prone to greater suicide risk, greater suicide ideation, greater self harm, greater mental health struggles, because of the ways that they are misunderstood, mistreated, and the negative messaging that they receive and have received, perhaps their entire lives. So this is a topic that is very near and dear to me. I think it is something that it is so important that we talk about that we learn about that we learn how to talk about with our kids, and that is exactly what today's guest is going to help us do. I am absolutely so delighted to have AnneMoss Rogers on the show today. She is a mental health and suicide education expert, a professional speaker, trainer and consultant. She talks about this subject because after her 20 year old son Charles died by suicide in 2015, she chronicled her family's tragedy and a local newspaper article, and that went viral. And her Blog Her subsequent blog, which is called emotionally naked has reached millions of people. She is the author of an award winning memoir called Diary of a broken mind, and the best seller emotionally naked, a Teacher's Guide to preventing suicide and recognizing students at risk with her co writer, Dr. Kimberly O'Brien. She has been a TEDx speaker was fixed, featured in The New York Times Variety magazine, and was the first non clinician invited to speak on youth suicide at the National Institute of Mental Health. So without further ado, I am so so happy to bring you my conversation with AnneMoss.

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast, transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath. And know that for the time we are together. You are in the safety of the just breathe Ness. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey. I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

AnneMoss, I am so happy that you are here with us today. And I'm really looking forward to having this very, very important conversation and really learning from you because you Have a not only incredible life experience, but you have really thrown yourself into learning all you possibly can and then educating others on that. So I am grateful that you've taken time out of your schedule and are here to share with us today. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you for having the guts to have not only one but several podcasts on suicide prevention, particularly for this group, which is so vital to saving lives.

Oh, my goodness, yes, the more the more and more that we learn, the more and more we realize that is the case. And unfortunately, right now, particularly the case, so this work is so so very important in this conversation is very important. I'd like to kind of start, maybe not so much at the beginning, but just a little background on who you are, and why you are doing what you are doing in the world.

So I started out my professional career in advertising and marketing. And as I've raised my children, I was freelancing, as a copywriter, basically doing advertising and marketing and digital marketing starting in 1995. Better like, and then I owned a digital marketing firm. And my son was struggling as I was owning this firm, and I was trying to juggle my professional life with, you know what was going on in that family. So he started in middle school. I just got the feeling, talking to his fifth grade teacher that we need to do private Middle School. And I'm really glad we did that. Once we got to high school, there weren't as many choices because we had a sleep disorder. And I would have preferred to do a small, private school. But all of them started at like 730. And for a child with a sleep disorder, that wasn't good, because most of the ones were at least 30 minutes away. So that to get him up even earlier. Yes, the Public School is the only place who will accommodate is this schedule where he could come in later so that he could get more sleep. And so that's what we went with. And I don't think it was the best choice for Charles, but I'm not sure what other choices we had at the time. So around his sophomore year, he gets chosen to be on homecoming court because he's the funniest most popular kid in schools. It's pretty rare for a sophomore. Yeah. And I remember what a great day that was because my older son was also chosen to be on the court and he actually want and I remember, they get this picture of me being totally shocked, because my older child, strong introvert, but it really kind of come out that year. And in turn, and when I say Come out, come out of his shell because he's an introvert. And my younger son, Charles, and you know, just laughed across the field. He's being escorted by his favorite teacher and and no people looking down on that field that day, my family thought, wow, you know, they really got it made. And what they didn't know is how much we were struggling with my younger son's mental health and how much we were struggling with his substance misuse, which had really started to escalate and really, really escalated after that proud mama moment, as I like to say. And I didn't know why he was doing drugs and alcohol. And later for reading his rap music, I would find out it was because he was numbing thoughts of suicide and to hear me that well. Isn't it a lot better than doing drugs and alcohol instead of killing them? So you know he's a teenager is not looking ahead to see the problems that could lead. He's just thinking in the moment and what happens when they do that is they you know, are robbed of the ability to develop healthy coping strategies. He ends up being You know, we're going to see counselor because I don't know what to do. And I don't know what's what I don't know what he's struggling with. And nobody offers to do a psychological evaluation. We're not getting a lot of help from the school. I mean, I had some advocates, but not as many as I really needed. And I'm sure members of your audience will certainly understand that. He ends up at the counselor in Sept recommended that we kick that person out of his bed and haven't set to a wilderness program. And I know you've been there, right? Yes. And then from there, we did get a psychological evaluation. And so that was the good part. And he was diagnosed with major depression for the first time, which I found shocking, you know, funniest, most popular kid in school, he seemed to relish in love life and a constant revolving door of friends. And it was really hard to understand. But I accepted it. And then he was diagnosed with ADHD combined tight anxiety and cannabis dependence, because he had started using marijuana to be able to sleep and he, you know, said it was natural and blah, blah, blah. But I want everyone to know that marijuana is not harmless. It triggers psychosis and schizophrenia. And it definitely it wasn't troll to destination drug, he would end up becoming addicted to heroin eventually. But he didn't end up becoming addicted to it until we went to therapeutic boarding school. And it wasn't until we returned in 2014, which was kind of a height of the heroin epidemic. And he kind of got caught up in that. And he would eventually confessed, he would do all the things, the detox the rehab, and he would go to recovery house, and he would relapse within 24 hours. It was their protocol, to take him back to detox. All he had to do is three days, and he could come back to the recovery house. But he saw a friend there and they walked out together. And for two weeks, I don't know where he is, Is he under a bridge is he you know, staying with friends. And we get the occasional text, but not much other communication than that. Here's the thing. I also didn't call him a lot. And that still kind of wonder why I didn't and I think it was fear. Or, you know, I need to do this tough love parenting thing, which is a bunch of BS. I'm going to tell you that right now. I wish I had called him every day and said as much as I want you to get well, I love you even if you don't. But I didn't do that. I did tell him I love them. And I did textin and I got a last phone call that I didn't know was my last phone call. And it was on June third 2015 When my husband and I are giving in the back of a police car in a parking lot. They had called us to say we want to meet with you. And they delivered the worst days of our lives and told us our son had been found dead. And I remember thinking it's got to be overdose, right? I mean, he'd been addicted to heroin. And when my husband said have it done, the policeman said it was a suicide. I couldn't even breathe. I mean, my my husband is having this explosion in the front seat and I'm just I've forgotten how to breed and it was like this extra twist of the knife and it was like Doesn't he know we love him? I just didn't understand why suicide and it would just be a really long time before I would. I was that intent piece makes the grief process so much harder and you feel like how did on this pain and hurt so monumental and you know I really beat myself up for years over that. But then I sold my digital My marketing business and I started doing this full time because I wasn't finding the reward and other things I was doing. And I was finding healing by putting my grief into action. So that's why I do what I do today

I just need to take a moment and I want everybody to take a moment because that and I want to honor

is my baby

the worst imaginable thing?

I mean, I felt that took all those steps. I thought this was gonna insulate me. And not only did it blow up in my face, it blew up in that absolute ugliest way possible. I mean, I couldn't even imagine a scenario. So are for Anna. Anna, a journey to healing. So absolutely, utterly painful is that was

I just I cannot even begin to imagine. And I am just so deeply sorry. I know that there are so many of us who in different ways can empathize with different pieces of your story for sure. And every parent, right, right, every single parent, it is the worst, worst imaginable thing.

I know. But I'm here today because I know that youth are LGBTQ plus aren't harder, higher risk. Yes. I do not want anyone to go through what I've been through. But we need to put in place and we need to be more. We need to be more aware with this group. Because that connection and belonging and lack of acceptance. No matter how accepting you are in the family, the rest of the world isn't always complying with that.

Correct? Correct. So what are there's a lot of different questions here and a lot of different pieces to this that I want to make sure that we talk about. First, I like that you just just now touched on or began to say I think where you are going, which is the fact that yes, our LGBTQ plus kids are more at risk, they are not at risk, because they are LGBTQ plus, they are risk because of what's coming at them externally. The messaging fed all of these years. So before and we've talked about this a lot here, like before they even come out, they already have all of this messaging spinning in their heads. So what can we do? What is what are some of the steps? Or what are the steps that you kind of like to to share about how to recognize this? What words What should we say to our kids? What kind of conversations should we be having? How can we, as parents, be more vulnerable? Or share, you know, share different things. And I heard that, you know, at several points in your story. That and I think that's something that, you know, it often does take some kind of crisis for us to learn that being vulnerable, and sharing what we're thinking what we're feeling with our kids is so vitally important, more important than we will ever know. So kind of going back. What are the steps that you would say like, this is what to look for? This is what you need to do.

So I think we look for kids who are isolating more, especially, it's natural for them to kind of pull away from you their parents at this age and to align more with their peers. But when they're pulling away A from you and their peers and isolating alone in the room. That's a red flag. Self deprecating remarks, nobody likes me. Everyone hates me. I'm so stupid. We need to start to ask more questions say, What makes you say that? I'd love to know. And remember, when you ask questions to ask with curiosity, not shame not, I'm going to teach you a lesson or I'm gonna set you straight. Right? You're listening. And you want that person to feel heard, which means not offering solutions. But just asking more questions. So what we're going to look for is we're going to look for kids who are absent a lot. Maybe they're going to the school nurse a lot. That's Charles did that. So they have backaches, headaches, they catch more stuff, they go to the doctor more they go the ER, those kids are often at risk. So if you know your school nurse by first name, it is they can be likely that your child might be at higher risk of suicide. But it's not the only thing. It's kind of the combination of a bunch of risk factors that kind of come together all at once. Are they falling asleep a lot in class, that means they might be having trouble falling asleep at night, behaving recklessly and taking chances. You know, you've talked about drugs and alcohol, and they're popping every pill they can buy, because they don't care if they're gonna die. I think we really need to look out for those things and what they say, I'm so worthless. I'm such a burden. I can't do this anymore. Now a lot of people think suicide is selfish. It's not it is really about feeling despair, and feeling like you are so worthless. If you are gone. No one would care. But I want everyone here to know that that continue on more the time there and a suicidal episode isn't limited amount of time. And 20 minutes is about average. And it goes kind of like up and down. And at no time is anyone 100% committed to the idea of dying by suicide. So they're always ambivalent on some level. And the really, really intense feelings of I want to die and I want to die now to stop this pain. Those lasts 60 to 90 seconds within that 20 minute or so continuum, and it can be shorter, and it can be longer, but that's just a variable. Okay? And so won't people didn't know they come out of it. So let's say they've taken some over the counter medication, and they are at risk, by the way, taking too much Tylenol or whatever they took. They may come tell you and you're wondering what they were trying to kill themselves. Why are they telling me now? That's because they've come out of that suicidal process, and they're like, I don't want to die anymore. In that moment. They did. And then that changes, right. So that's the sort of basic overview. And if you've been hearing your child Samia, this, it's time to say, you know, I was listening to this podcast episode today. And the woman was talking about her son who died. And if a child says these phrases, that we need to ask the question, Are you thinking of suicide? Because if you want to know, if someone is thinking suicide, you have to ask directly. What you will typically see on someone's face is relief, because they've been wanting to tell you that and that's what people don't understand is that kids who struggle with thoughts of suicide more desperately, that's how you they find me online. And I've had conversations with people with kids for two years. And sometimes they get around to telling somebody within two days and sometimes it takes them two years. Right. But they really want to tell and they struggle with telling you because they worry about how you'll accept it. and how you react. First thing, do not panic, whatever you have to do, whatever you have to pull from, you've done these parents, you guys, you've been through a lot, you know better than to panic. Take that deep breath. And just start asking questions, how long have you felt this way? Tell me more about how you feel. If any, I think it's really important. Maybe not at this sitting, you know, if you're actually your child's in suicidal ideation. But later on, you want, you want to have the conversation of being more about, you know, being more vulnerable yourself and sharing with them. what your fears are for them, you know, when, when you told me that, all I could think about was how much I miss you, and how much I love you. But at that moment, I needed to be there for you. I'm not handling this well, right now, I'm kind of freaking out and wanting to text you and call you constantly. And that's not gonna help either one of us. So I'm joining a support group, or a discussion group. So I can get support, and not do that, because it's not effective. And then you can come up, ask them, Well, I want to ask you every day, are you thinking of suicide, but if we can come up with a code phrase, you know, my toenails are blue, you know, whenever you want to give them the agency to come up with the funny phrase, you know, you're not gonna want me to ask them every day. But we need to agree that this, that's what this phrase means. And it's just a way of us to communicate, and for you to bring down my anxiety about this, which I'm asking your help. So when you do that, you're saying You're important to me, I need your help, for my anxiety, and just your presence, and your thoughtfulness or your random hugs, will help make that happen to you making them a part of that process.

i That's great. I really, really love that. So many different pieces there that are so actionable. And so easy to do. Because I think when we think when we think about this, it seems very just big. And it does

and scary. And you think I can't fix this and allow our your listeners to know, you cannot, you cannot fix this for them. You can be there to support them. You can be there to love them. But it's okay, not to have all the answers. It's okay to say, I don't even know what to do yet. Let's text 741741 or the Trevor tax line, let's do that together, or call the Trevor hotline together. Right? And let's see what they suggest for next steps. As parents we often want to come come out is sort of knowing at all and I think we need to reveal a vulnerability that we don't but we're willing to learn along with

them. Right. Absolutely. Well, and I think that when they realize, you know, that helps them realize our humanity, right, we're not on that pedestal of the parent, right? All of a sudden that brings us down to like, Oh, they're human too. And oh, they're they're feeling this right like their feelings are similar to my feelings. And I can communicate with them. Which I is I think such is a it is a game changer. And as far as relationship with your child, specifically your teenager. I do love that you brought up the Trevor Project and any of these hotlines which will all be in the show notes for for you all. But again, I think that is such a great initial go to because I think there is that moment where You're sitting in this and the two of you are communicating. And you're thinking, it is such a natural thing for a parent to be like, I just want to fix, right. And I, and I want to do, and, and this is something that you can do, and offer to do with your child, which I love that you said that too, because that takes kind of that I'm alone piece. And it's scary. Right? And you're

sure you're showing partnership, right? You know, immediately what, let's figure this out. Plus you're giving them agency. Yep. Which is so important for their future mental health. And I want to also add, there's the trans lifeline, too. Yeah. So if you've got a trans child, you definitely want to read cuz other people who understand and you're gonna get somebody on the line has been through this, and they understand this. And that's what you really need.

Absolutely, absolutely. And there, they are going to be able to not only listen in the best way, but share the most helpful information they are and direct you where perhaps you need to go next or you know what?

The friendly Yeah, friendly resources. Egg. Right.

Exactly. I'm curious. Your thoughts on this a while back, I spoke with someone who also works in in this similar field who suggested that when we have these conversations with our child, and we really talk about whether it's suicidal ideation, or when they're in that moment, right, and thank you for breaking that down so clearly, that if you ask the question, why would you want to stay here? Why do Why do you want to stay here? And have them start naming reasons that they want to stay here that that does something in the brain? And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

So at the point where they're in ideation, there's so fixated with their tunnel vision, you can ask that it's okay to ask that, but understand that they may not be able to formulate an answer. And most likely, it's going to be worthless there. There are no reasons to stay here. Because emotionally, they don't have the capacity to wrap their heads around that. Sure. However, most of the time, we are not in suicidal ideation. And I do something with teenagers and college kids on an index card, what are your reasons for living? And they write it down in their own handwriting. And this has, it's called the Crisis Response Plan. And it's Dr. Craig Bryan, he gets credit for this. And the the numbers and success rates are incredible. And I think everyone should have this index card. Right? What is so crucial about it is, what are the things that make that make life worth living? And what along with things like family, my dog, my YouTube channel and not saying it, you know, it might be mad football, might be my dog. But you also want them to also think of the past memory to also in just a couple of clues on that card, to sort of trigger that memory. to mine. I've got all my code Viana because I had dinner one night in a castle, Indiana. And I was invited to this dinner. And it was through my husband's business. We had no idea what and it was so lavish, it was so fabulous. We were sitting in this table. And I've never laughed so hard. My whole life. And everybody kept coming up to our table, including the royalty because we were laughing so hard, and we clearly just had the magic that night. Oh my gosh. And so that's all I have to remember. And then I'm back in a happy place. So writing down little things that trigger remember a one dad put on his card. Remember how good Angela was during my cancer treatment? And how his dad Artur had nursed him the whole time through his cancer treatment and gotten him newspapers and read him stories. And now he's feeling suicidal. And that was his way of kind of resetting his own brain. If you ask them to take out that card, when they are suicidal, it reminds them of those things they wrote down themselves. And that is a more effective strategy because, but didn't come up with those reasons in ideation is pretty rare.

Right? That makes sense, just because you're in that crisis, fight or flight? Yep.

So I wanted to finish the rest of what goes on that card. So you've got your reasons for living. And then you have people that you will reach out to? And those are your trusted adults. So maybe it is your school counselor, because she's been super supportive. But not just your parents, other trusted adults. You want to write down the crisis line, dude reach out to with this, you know, group, it would be some of those Trevor? Project? Yeah. lifelines, right? Maybe you put down one line, every, almost every state has a warm line. And when you're struggling, that's a good place to call. So you want them to think ahead of time, what is my plan, because when you are in that moment, and that's why they train people in the army, because when they're in that emotional fight or flight, I'm going to be killed in battle, what kicks in their training kicks in, right? And if they've written it in their own handwriting, then it's so much more effective. So those are the basics. Some people like to add, what are the emotional feelings that trigger my thoughts of suicide? But that gets a little complicated. So I want to just kind of keep it what are the things that make life worth living? Who would you reach out to? And what are the numbers that you would call?

Love that that is incredible. Tell me again, who you credited this to somebody who who was

Dr. Craig, Brian. Okay. And it's called the Crisis Response Plan, C, R P. Okay. So basically, I've let him know, I kind of adapted this. And, you know, I'm just doing a little crisis plan. Now, it's not done. Like, he doesn't hold training. And I'm not doing every aspect of his training, I'm just getting kids in the five or 10 minute moment, write an index card, and put what is the most effective part, which is studies, there's are those reasons to well, they said, so many people when I did this index card, and I would see them years later, they'd pull out some worn piece of paper, you know, and, and they would say, these reasons for living of what kept me alive in difficult times.

This is incredible. I mean, this is something that truthfully, we all should we all need that warning here thinking like this is going to be a family activity. Right? This is something and is that important.

I'm gonna do this on a college campus this month. And it's mandatory for the freshmen to it'll be 1800 students, and we're gonna do this cart.

That is awesome. I mean, that is awesome. This is really, really incredible. I think if you know, more so than perhaps we even realize I'm just thinking like the massive effect that this could have. And I'm so grateful to you for sharing it. You're welcome. I one more thing that I just really want to we're kind of gonna jump a topic here really quickly, because I know we're looking at our time here, but we had talked a little bit before we started about how to advocate for our children. So, you know, there are many reasons that adolescents teenagers can find themselves in bullying situations or difficult situations at school, later on, being out in the LGBTQ community. So as parents when we are advocating whether it's in the school or, you know, on a sports team or in the community, what advice do you have for parents in approaching that?

I think, before you go, go have that pep talk of, I am not going to jump in turn a motional. Tsunami here. I am going to approach this topic in a way. So think about your audience. Think about what their issues are, you know, have they been sort of anti LGBTQ? Because you want to get the most fear child that you can't, you're not going to convert this person overnight. Right? Right. If that's the situation you're walking into, so think about that situation you're walking into, and have a plan and sort of make it a game. What is the most action give promote job, despite the fact that they may be against this or think it's against the religion? So for example, when I do trainings, the first time I did a roleplay, between the teacher and LGBTQ students, three people walked out. And I thought, well, I guess I just need to toss that roleplay. And then I was like, No, I don't, that's not right, these kids are at risk. I'm all about saving lives. So I had to figure out a way to accommodate those that that thought this was wrong. I had to take out my own belief system, and then own emotion related to this, instead of getting mad when my kid died from death. You know, I had to just divorce all that and say, Do you really want a child to die? Right, but you know, any child, and you know, if any child does that suicide, it puts everyone else at risk. If it's a sports team, or a grade level, or a whole school, nobody wants that, you know, nobody wants to deal with grieving students and negative press. And so you got to sort of make that plan of going in. So you reach your goal, understanding that you may not get everything you want. But you just want your foot in the door.

Right. So as much as you may want to be, you know, the mama bear, LGBTQ plus advocate, you may have to temper that a bit to try and shift that to, I am going to appeal to this person's humanity. Right?

You have to understand that like when I go into rural communities now talk about access to firearms. If I go in telling them they need to put their bullets in a warehouse three miles away from their house, do you think they're gonna do that? I mean, yes, a firearm owning community, the big honors No way. Right? I have to appeal to their humanity. Right, that tell them rural communities are known for being there for their neighbor, would you not want to be there for your neighbor when they're going through a hard time, and that may involve changing the code on their, their gun gunsights. Right, until they're in a better place with their agreement, and you make this agreement ahead of time. And you do this for each other? Showing discretion? You know, you don't have to announce it to the whole community. Right. But having that kind of thought process before you go on, you want to go in with guns blazing and a sword lifted, and I'm, you know, I'm gonna show them, right, but what is the first thing that happens? They dig their heels in, there's no way right or give them anything?

Yep. They shut down or walk out? Yep.

That is not your goal. No, it's just, it's an inch by inch process. And so you have to appeal to them, like you said, on on a human on a human level.

Oh, my goodness, absolutely.

What is the Christian thing to do here, you know, and defining Christianity is, you know, son, something, that means that you don't want other people to die, and you want to be there for each other, you know, no matter what, and I think it's really important. Like when kids are in ideation, a lot of times people will think, Well, that's the time to tell them that this is wrong. And, you know, try to convert them and like, no, no, please don't do that. He's so fast. Yeah.

Ah, goodness gracious, no. And maybe not ever. But hopefully not

ever with that language. I

mean, I think that, yes, goodness gracious. And recognize, you know, I guess, in you saying using that specific language? I mean, that kind of is another. I think we could probably go off on a whole other tangent here on just fear, because that's what that is.

All of it's fear based. And I'm not exactly understanding what they're afraid of. But they are. Yeah, somehow it on hinges their belief system, but, but it's like, I don't know that it has anything to do with you.

Right. Exactly, exactly. It is difficult. But I think that, I think for us when, you know, understanding that's where the basis is makes it easier to come in and approach people who are operating from a place of fear. And right, right, and knowing how to, to talk with them. And

oh, that's so succinctly said, Thank you. Thank you for making me sound good. Oh, that's wonderful.

You're welcome. Oh, my goodness.

You can give me an hour to cut that out. And then I'll just stop.

Oh, my goodness, well, I would love to give you a few minutes, you have done some incredible writing, and presenting, and you have so many incredible resources available. And so I would love for you to share whatever you'd like to share right now. And to everyone listening. As always, this will be in the show notes, and on my website and all of the places so you will be able to find and mosses incredible teaching and thoughts.

So I think the most important page, I think if you go to mental health awareness education, or you can google and mas Rogers or find me, click on Books. And on that page, you'll see my to publish but but also, there's a link at the top, it says free ebook library. And you can click on that. And it'll talk about 10 ways to prevent suicide in their children, ways to work, recognize depression, and all sorts of really good resources that are free. All you need to do is put them in email, and you can download them and most of them are about 12 pages.

That's incredible. That is really, really fantastic. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And you have a very cool t shirt that we can all proudly wear that is hashtag just listen. And I think those are such wise wise words that if we do nothing else, we hear them and we see them as right

stop suicide with your ears. Yeah, it's been very popular. Sure.

I love that. I love that. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being here with me today. And I know this will have such an incredible impact. And just educating and helping save a life.

Thank you so much. Appreciate your having me the day.

Thank you so much for being here today. Wow, that was really, really incredible. And I am sure that you gleaned as much from that as I did just holy cow. I have to say, I'm just I'm still processing and digesting and I'm the one of the first things I'm going to be doing is creating an index card with each of my kids suggesting to them and sharing with them how to do this and doing it for myself and sharing it with Steve as well. So I highly recommend that I think that is an incredible, incredible tool and suggestion. Please share this episode with someone that you love someone you know who could benefit from listening to it. And if you have questions or wish to talk to somebody, the hotline as well as all of and mosses other resources are in the show notes, as well as on my website.

Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalis mama.com To stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone. And remember to Just Breathe. Until next time