Embracing Authenticity: Genderfluidity, Self-Discovery, and Empowerment with Lori Sweetman

Heather HesterWelcome to Just Breathe: 00:00:11

Parenting your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast, transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath. And know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the just breed nets. Whether today's show is an amazing guest, or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having cosy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Heather HesterWelcome to Just Breathe: 00:01:13

Lori thank you so much for being here today. I am so glad that we are finally getting to have this conversation. And just really excited to pick your brain and to learn more about what you do and and your journey and how you started doing what you're doing. So thank you so much for being here today.

Oh, thank you for having me. Truly, when I saw your podcast pop up as something that could be interesting for me to listen to. I was like, wow, we have so much that we could discuss together. Truly, you know, the journeys that you've been on the people that you're serving and helping it's so so in line with what I'm I tried to contribute to as well, that is just so nice to meet somebody else out there that is serving this community truly

agreed. I agreed. It is always nice to come across someone you're like, oh, you know what I do? You get

it? You get it? We have the same brain.

Exactly. It's so nice. Not ever. I mean, we are kind of few and far between, but not one of us has like the exact same experience. So it's really cool, I think to have these conversations too, because it's how we keep learning, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I am a gender and sexuality, holistic life coach. I am also a teacher. And I have gone to college and furthered my education and got my master's in psychology specializing in gender and sexual fluidity. And what I hadn't originally intended was to serve my school system in a way that hasn't been met and sort of helping contribute to the SEL, social emotional learning programs and create GSAs or creates trainings for the staff. And I found that there was a bigger need for the community, one on one, and four are outside of the schools where people were looking for extra supports. Yes, there's a need in the schools. But when I was coming across people that were looking for, for help for community for others out there that were going through the same things as them, I saw that there was a need for things in my community for people to meet up for education for training parents on what is happening with their child, or for helping create connections between people that are either coming out or have been out in or dealing with what we call minority stress. That's the different stigmas and homophobic experiences or transphobic experiences or the overall things we come across the day that we kind of hold our breath through, and at the end of the day, feel fully and weigh on us. So he's seeing all of the that happening around me, I felt that it would be great to take my education and my experiences and go and serve the public in my community. So I'm in New Jersey, and use when we see in the news that New Jersey seems like it's a very progressive state. I'm in the northwestern section where it's very rural. And there is a lot of laws that are trying to get pushed through like in all the other states that are very anti gay, very, don't say gay, if you will. And there's not a lot of nonprofits or supports in this particular county that I'm in. So the county above me and near me, that little corner they are, that's where I'm trying to really get a lot of my programming that's in person happening, because there really isn't anything around us. And I'm serving virtually all over as well. Right, or schools, there's a lot of a lot of people out there that could use some help. Yeah, specifically with my my own personal experience with believe you asked about that. I am a later in life, lesbian, also later in life, gender fluid, lesbian, or non binary, that big umbrella term. And that simply means that for the gender aspect anyway, that I find myself very fluid, I find myself internally, as well as how I express externally, myself going and swaying between masculine and feminine, not always all the way not on either ends, it's usually close to either ends and going back and forth between So some days, I'll wake up, and I'll just be feeling very much like a masculine energy running through me that I want the world to see me as that and refer to me as that. And then there are times when I wake up, and I'm just like, really embracing my more feminine side. And I would want the world to talk to me and express and be with me as though I am on that feminine side of the spectrum. And then there are times when I just want to be both. And I don't want anyone to recognize me as either one, it's a very roller coaster ride, if you will, it can go for a month or two like that, or a day or two like that. And it really is very, very fluid. And as far as lesbian aspects, I find myself very interested in relationships, and very attracted to people that are identifying as a woman. So that, for me, was very much more difficult realization to come to that it was for my gender. So I already was sort of non conforming to begin with, I didn't realize that some of the ways that I was interacting with people would have felt more comfortable if I was discussed and and, and it was interpreted but experienced the way I was feeling internally that it would have been more comfortable and have made me feel happier. But the harder thing for me to realize was that I can't be in a relationship with a woman and it's okay to be in a relationship with a woman. And that I even was attracted to women in general, like that whole aspect of me, just was ignored for the longest time and just pushed aside as a fad. Or how do I put this, my family would, would refer to it as like a passing phase, like a phase, right? And people around me would call it girl crushes. So it's kind of belittled or gaslit in a way, because you're you're starting to discuss with people that you feel comfortable with, like, oh, isn't that interesting person? I wonder what that person would be like, if they asked me out? And then you'd be told, what are you talking about? Don't be silly. You're interested in guys, you've been dating guys. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. You know, don't worry about it. Like, I don't know what I was talking about just a girl crush, you know, go away.

Instead of holding that space for that possibility,

yes, that wasn't even considered a possibility. It was my own intuition about what I was feeling wasn't allowed to be explored, expressed, played around with fantasize about an in any way, shape, or form explored as an identity. So that identity phase that formation of who we are truly happens when we're kids, and is explored all the way through our 20s. So we've got this huge section of our life that is our identity formation. And during that whole section of our life, where we're like, am I interested in soccer? Do what religion do I like what kind of personality do I feel most comfortable expressing? Were my friends and who was what is the career that I'm interested in? All those things that we see as what makes us up who we are, includes how we express our gender, how we feel about our gender, how we feel about our relationships, both friendships, people that we align with co worker wise people that we align with in our family, people that we align with as mentors people that we aligned with in hand holding and kissing, you know, that we want to feel love with and love instead of a friendship, love and actual romantic love. So that whole section of our life, if we are a being looking for role models or being able to express with our family, and validated, then we can really truly form that. But if we're not being validated in that, then we're kind of getting that feeling like, well, then maybe this isn't something that I should be doing, it's not safe, it's gonna get me pushed out of my family groups, my friend groups, I'm not going to explore that now. And then it comes out later on. And that's what happened to me it came out later on, when I finally was able to safely explore that in some way, shape, or form and have the confidence to be like, this is actually something I am interested in. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I really am interested in this. Right? Yeah. So then I came out later in life, and shocked everybody.

Except for yourself, right myself. Exactly. Exactly. I am curious, because I love the way that you said all of that and expressed all of that, because it makes it so very clear that there are all these different pieces, right? And a lot of times, and I'm sure you found this too, with people that you talk to, like there's kind of this panic, like when we're kind of talking about when people's children come out in whatever capacity it is. And parents tend to panic if their child's you know, first comes out, let's say as gay, but then they're like, Well, maybe, you know, maybe I'm also gender fluid. Maybe I'm also trans, maybe I'm also right, and they're like, Well wait, they can't change their mind. Like they already said that they're there. So it has to be this. And there's this piece of like, this is a very fluid process. And that doesn't mean that it's a phase. That doesn't mean they don't know, what it means actually is. And I'm wondering if you can give a little insight on this. But to me, my thinking is that it's like there's a space that's been given to them that's safe enough where they feel like they can, yes, take a moment to explore. But I wonder if you could expound on that a little bit.

I love that you mentioned that, like you've the family has created that safe space for them. And that's something to be celebrated. The fact that they your child is coming to you, first of all is huge, huge in the safe space that you've created for your child. And then on top of it, that they feel safe enough to be like, Oh, hold on a second parental unit Guardian of the Galaxy. I am so also interested in all these other things here. You know, and the fact that that your child is wanting to run this by you get your validation, get your feedback, get your this is also safe, right is huge growth for you and your child's connection, and will go very, very far in their life. I can't even express how happy that makes me that people are saying that this is happening. And that my child is also changing their minds, and that I'm giving them that space, but like helped me feel good about this place and they're seeking support. Right? Like, that's also something to be celebrated, that you're seeking support for yourself outside of, you know, your child trying to be that support for you. Because I see that happening sometimes to where they're like, are you okay? Are you okay? What can I do more? And the child's like, hold on a second. Your anxiety is giving me anxiety. Exactly. Oh my god, I'm happy you want to know how I can help you need to support me but slow down a second. I'm still figuring that out for myself. Right? Just wanted to share this be validated. Now you go find somebody else to get that support. At and I will continue to play with all my cool things that became to me in the mail that are all LGBTQ. Right.

Exactly. All of my different flags and my and

being absolutely adorable as I go on this journey. Exactly.

Oh my gosh, yeah. Celebrate

the journey. I feel like these to be this tagline that goes out everywhere. Because it is a journey. Childhood, all the way through young adulthood is a huge roller coaster ride in so many areas of their life. Right there. You'll celebrate when they're getting interested in different kinds of sports. You will celebrate when they're getting interested in different hobbies, you'll celebrate when they're changing of friendships and making stronger better connections that they had before. You'll celebrate when they get when they are expressing interest in different kinds of careers, when they get their first crush when they're going through all these different things. So why not celebrate that they are comfortable enough to excel or their different gender and romantic relationship interests? And that they feel safe doing that it's

exactly, exactly. Thank you. I mean, that is, I think it I love. I'm just I think it's so important that we say this out loud. You said it out loud that I say that loud that we all like are saying this because the more that people I think people are just afraid, like, there's all this so much fear. And understandably so, especially right now. Right. But just to be like, Oh, this is this is the way it's supposed to work like, this is no different than any other change. That's, you know, that's going on in growth that's going on in their lives at this point. Yeah. So just to

absolutely, I mean, they're, it's understandable where the panic comes from having, like, the things that we see come through on our social media or the things that we hear about in our community. And so I want to validate the panic that sometimes happens, those those things can feel very scary to where you want to make sure that your child's not going to experience depression, make sure your child is not going to experience any sort of negative stigma and that they feel like they can't explore that identity, I get that. But we also have to make sure that they feel okay to explore all the identities, not just the first one that they come across. And then perhaps take it back, walk it back, and then go back to it again, it's, it's kind of like when they're learning to swim, if your child has ever tried to experience that, they'll dip their toe in the water, test out the temperature, maybe they'll splash around a bit, and then all of a sudden, they'll be like, Whoa, I just sucked up some water when I went under, I'm never doing this again, hold on, and they'll go back and again, like we're giving them that chance to feel the temperature to see what it's all about, take that step back if they need to, and then they'll feel stronger when they go and embrace what they feel is the correct identity for themselves.

Right? Right.

It is normal for it to change, not so far from where they started. Right? You know, but it is normal for to sway a little bit because gender and sexuality are fluid. Even for the heterosexual couple, even for the person who is feeling very cysts in their gender, or very, very straight, there will be things that can come up through their lifetime, where they want to explore it for a bit, or might not have aligned with the way they were when they were younger. And that is also completely normal. Because it is a fluid spectrum where you can be anywhere on that big wheel of gender and sexuality.

Right? One, I think kind of, to your point to like, you know, when you're young, you don't necessarily I think for especially so so many of us who are a little bit older, who there was such a binary. And so it was very difficult to be able to, if it was outside of the binary binary in any way, like, what is this? What is this feeling? Well, I'm not quite sure I can't really like figure it out. So I'm just going to put it away, I'm going to shove it right. And as languaging and understanding became more and more available, then it was like, oh, that's what that is right. Like, now I can kind of connect into that and, and get a better understanding of what that is. And I think it's so important, you know, it's kind of breaking through the binary right and looking at it as more of a spectrum which, you know, is I think, a much better way to look at both gender and sexuality because it's not on a binary it is very much on a spectrum. And any person and to your point, any you know even if you are straight cisgender it's still a lot of spectrum like that still is where you are is different than your you know, whether a spouse or friend or whatever, right so

how you experience your straight cis feeling is different than how your neighbor experiences it and different how your spouse if you have one experience is it. The fact that we have has so many more researchers in psychology and biology and sociology, all of those all of those researchers joining together and sharing their knowledge, we're able to come up with a better language a better excellent way to explain how we experience our sexuality, how we experience our romantic interests, how we express As our identity formation, how we experience our gender internally and externally, and how we want society to see us, like, there's just so many more nuances, right. And the fact that they've been able to form language for that means that they're able to create better way of documents and get in their research too. And so when we, when we use here, Willie's when I hear families or people in general, just coming up to me being like, I don't understand why this was like, so different than how it was when I was younger. You know, it was older generations coming up to me and be like, we didn't have this when we were younger. Well, we, we didn't experience a lot of things the same as when you were younger, because society changes, because research grows, right? Because we're able to change our language to match how we're feeling. Because there's more people coming out talking about it, and we're able to validate it now. Right? Because we didn't have characters in our books that looked like us, when we were little, you know, those still those those little nuances? Yeah, it's supposed to change we're supposed to grow as a society.

That's part of evolving, right? It's part of like evolving and growing, which is so vitally important for survival. I and I know this is something to that you do talk about the spectrum a lot, which I, I love that you really touched on this and do have such a lovely way of explaining it. When Are there any articles or books or any kind of media that you point people to when they're really kind of wanting to understand more about this?

Yeah, there is a researcher, her first name is sorry, to have to remember if I aligned myself with her last name. It's a theory that she has created as I'm trying to remember the name of it right now, because I'm a little sick, my brains a little foggy.

And we can come back to it too,

if you want, I think it was SRTs, or something like that. But it she describes gender and sexuality as a funnel. And she has this unique way of explaining it and showing it to people. So I tend to give her cartoon book that she has out because she has something very free to the public. And people can go through the map, and see how their culture, how their kinks, how their relationship partners, how their religion, how their intersects the interests with how somebody looks, their interests, how someone's personality is their lack of any of this, how they feel about their gender, and how they want to express their gender in a row in a romantic relationship versus in a sexuality experience. And you can map yourself on this one, oh, well, it's very cool. She uses it to help herself with her research and has published it as a way for researchers to better identify the participant from their perspective in the research, so that you're able to better classify what which how people are feeling and expressing various things. Right. And I have it saved on my computer.

Okay, you can share it with me, and I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, it'll be in the show notes. Everyone, just just just hang in there. Just this will make you go to the show notes. So Oh, my gosh, that's so cool. I figured you had something that was because this is such a something that people have so many questions about and just really wanting to understand, and I just have such curiosity, and which is lovely. So I always feel like when somebody is really curious, and they're asking a lot of questions, like I want to be able to direct them to, you know, even a greater body of work or another way to like really learn

the way to process the information. Time with and sit and go back west.

Right? Yeah, right. I

love that. Yeah, no, go ahead. I love that she created it in a cartoon format. It's it's makes it easy for people to digest these difficult concepts.

Oh my goodness, right. I mean, nothing better than a good graphic novel. I mean, we all love them. That's so awesome. Okay, so there are a couple of more things that I wanted to hear from you. So I love so one of the things you were talking a little bit about in in your notes that I was reading, was the idea of coming in is more important than coming out and I am So I'm curious about what you mean by that.

Understanding yourself, like admitting to yourself, that this is something that you're feeling, and that it's okay. Having that self compassion, with all of what's happening within you both the turmoil of feeling conflict against how you were raised or against what your expectations were for yourself. Maybe they were put upon you, maybe they're you put it upon yourself, then also validating it for yourself that this was hard, or not so hard, maybe it was easy, but it's hard to say it out loud. Just whatever those internal processes that are happening within you as, as you're discovering that you're, if it says about you and your child have that your your expectations towards your child, maybe it's how your child is feeling their expectations for you towards themselves. Having that compassion and admitting to yourself that that's there and then admitting to yourself that this is happening, then being able to express it, it's really important that you're feeling it within, and that you're loving yourself, and that you're accepting yourself. And that you're accepting that life is going to be a roller coaster ride, it's going to have its ups and downs. And whatever stage of that ride you're in right now, eventually, it'll come to a smooth ending. And it'll work out. So coming in is a huge, important part of the process. And if you never feel comfortable talking about it with every family member, every friend, but that's okay. But if you're able to live it within yourself and be authentic to yourself, that's so important.

That's the most important.

Absolutely, yeah.

Okay, I love that I was wondering, because I talked so much about the Cast model are coming out. And because I love the way that that really kind of breaks it down. Especially I mean, I there's for coming up for the person coming out, but there's kind of like a separate, like, coming out for parents. And so this works really well into that of like, kind of that whole idea of like pausing the self compassionate self compassion, of just like giving yourself that moment to like, check in and be like, Oh, this is where I am. And that's Thank you.

Absolutely, yeah, I did a lot of research on how self compassion builds resiliency and how self compassion is one of the key components in not just resiliency but being happy and authentic. And so that, for me was that piece that needs to be spoken more about a people or embrace the person who's coming out because they want them not to be scared to be themselves. But sometimes it really is unsafe to be out that there are valid concerns with needing to be careful with who you're around as your authentic self, when you are a underrepresented member of the community that has laws against you're who you are. And so this concept of coming in really embracing that and finding yourself to be okay with who you are, will help you know better where you can be yourself and be good with that. But then also be good with not being out in certain areas if you can't, because you're still okay with who you are, regardless of whether you're able to be who you are. And that space.

That and that is so key, right? So you're able to hold that for yourself. Or hold that for your loved one, whoever it is, and know that just because you are they are not able to like say whichever person they walk by or express it even in, you know, the way that they're dressing or the way that they're speaking or the way that you know, any of these things. But does it mean that they're not? Or you're not? Right? So I love that because I think that's something again, right now that's so very important for everyone to understand and embrace because it's not saved a lot of places. In fact, I'll tell you the story i Yesterday I was talking to somebody, and it was right now I think I've mentioned this to you beforehand, but I am Florida right now with my mother in law, and my kids spring break. And I was talking to a person and she is a person of color, female and lesbian. And we were talking about what I do I said, and she's just on here for a time. She's from New York City, Brooklyn. So we were like laughing because I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's her KOTTARAS Yeah, we'd love New York and all this. So, anyway, I was like, aren't you nervous to be down here because frankly, I was a little apprehensive about coming down here with my daughter. And, and just like how on high alert, like, total Mama Bear high alert, right? And she said, You know, I Yes, I have been very, very nervous about it. And she said, the other day, I was in someplace, and somebody was hitting on her. And she said, you know, you know, sorry, not interested. I'm a lesbian. And he was like, oh, and like, not at all put off. She's like, but he followed me outside and was like, You need to be very, very careful. He was like, and I don't mean that. And like, I'm being scary kind of way. I mean, like, a very protective kind of way. You got to be very, very careful down here. And I was like, wow, and how kind? Yeah, right. Like, they're kind of remove icon,

a bit of a creepy way, but how?

Like, that could have broken bad and like, 12 different ways. I mean, it really was like, actually were brave to like, there was a lot of bravery going on there. But also like, I, as like a mom, I kind of wanted to be like, Okay, can we just like regroup and? You know, but that is so it's just, I think such a statement of where we are right now. And and for, you know, for whether it's us, or our loved ones who are trying to figure out how do I navigate this, especially if I go from an environment that is very safe to an environment that is not quite as safe, right? So you know, I talked to Connor about this all the time, like you you live in New York City, and New York City, you nobody takes a second look at you, right, like you are good, you've got your people, you're good. Other places, you have to be careful, even if you are traveling with your people, because potentially less safe. So you know, I think these are just it's important to have these very real conversations.

Yes, having honest conversations can be very empowering in general. And they feel very scary at first, because you might not have had to ever have conversations like this with your children. Right? If you are of an underrepresented ethnicity group or race group, you had conversations already, by this point with your children about how race and religion and ethnicity impact you with various aspects of the environment around you. And now you're layering on gender or sexuality. But for those who are not of that underrepresented population, as a parents, as a guardian, you're going to be looking at your child for the first time with all this panic about society. Right. And so the conversation is new to you. And it's difficult, but it becomes very powerful conversation and that and opens up other conversations that can be difficult as well, that no longer have to be so difficult because you started that conversation about safety, and about the reality and you're recognizing and validating the reality. So they're no longer now they're not as afraid to come to somebody, but also to know how to handle themselves in these spaces. They're prepared.

Right, exactly. And I think that that's the most the most important thing, right, just kind of knowing that again, to your point, like not so that everybody walks around and fear all the time, but it's that just being aware, and, and knowing you know what to do, right, yeah.

How to be safe in those spaces.

Correct. Correct. So, okay, we have just a couple more questions and a couple more minutes. And I have so like, some of the things basket, we might have to do a part two. So I'm going to give you your choice. It's choice choice time of questions, because I

had Showtime got it, right.

Whatever they want to call it, yeah. Okay. So, two topics that I just loved, but I know that you're, you have such awesome thoughts on how to deal with homophobic family members, or homophobic people in general. Or how does one know if they are polyamorous or pansexual or any sexuality or gender identity that's outside of LGBT?

Okay, so both of those could be like hour long conversations in and of themselves. Just so you're aware?

Well, yes. I mean, I figured I was gonna be getting the like the here's the surface answer, and then we can dig deep. Well, this, this will definitely give us a reason to have hurt, too. But I'll let you, you know, let's let's tee up some curiosity, how about that?

Oh, okay. Curiosity. You know what there will be much more suspense with the polyamorous versus pansexual aspect. All right, that is a very hot topic right now of interest. And I love that every now and then you'll find somebody in a TV show that comes out as polyamorous or pansexual or some other what people consider new agey, but it's really just language that's finally been developed correct, or things that have always been there. I mean, you look to the indigenous populations, you'll find all of this has been around since the dawn of time, and was language and embraced as being closer to the gods, if you will. And yeah, we're looking at it as it's all new agey. It is not. It is, oh, gosh, I had somebody respond trendy, not trendy. But I also like I posted. So I'm doing this parent empowerment circle, as well as like these confidence circles and these identity circles. It's just education and group coaching and empowerments with your peers that are going through the same thing as you. So I'm advertising it, yes, come to come to my website. With it, but um, I was posting an advertisement about it. And I had comments like, this is pseudoscience and I'm just like, I'm there like, you're, I hate that there's so many people out there that are just pushing their agenda and it's all negative and that I'm making these things up. And I'm just looking at that. And I'm like, so I just spent how much money on my master's in gender and sexuality and all this evidence supported research that I can make things up.

Right. So no, I mean, there it is historical facts. No. Well,

we'll talk to you. Oh, my goodness, oh goodness. But polyamory is not a gender. It's not as a sexuality. It is a relationship, style, or relationship format. And it's a way of people expressing their love. And it does not mean only have sex in general like it's not just for erotic play. As not some people that are polyamorous do not express any eroticism at all. It is not a way of being various gender expressions. Although there are people who are polyamorous who are on the gender spectrum, and do like that as part of a way of them being able to be themselves better. That is not what it's for. polyamory is definitely not for the monogamous person to explore cheats either. And polyamory is definitely expressed differently amongst each polyamorous person. It is a word that is used to describe being able to love openly and fluidly more than one person. So if you're monogamous, you're in a relationship. And you can have various types of sexual experiences in your love relationship, you could have friends that you're very close with, that makes you maybe feel like you have more than one partner that you're intimate with. But you're holding space with you and your partner, as the tight knit group that makes these promises with each other, you're going to be together in it as the only romantic love interest. Okay? With polyamory you have more than one partner that you are romantically or intimately relating with. And then you can have various strengths within that too. So you might have one person that you see occasionally, that you have a very intimate relationship with that's very deep. You might have a relationship that you see all the time. You might have one person that you live with, we might not live with any of your partners, and they come and stay with you occasionally. So there's different ways that you are expressing your love with more than one partner. There are also polyamorous people that don't have more than one partner. They have one partner that they're very tight with. And they may be in and out of other relationships over a period that Time and might be going for long periods of time without another partner, because they haven't found someone that they really felt that close with, but they know they're capable of it. Right? So we have to be very careful with assuming that people are monogamous whether just with one partner, however, they're very just kind of like how we can't assume that somebody who is in a relationship with either the same gender, as the one identify with or a different gender than the one identify with is bisexual or not, is the same concepts.

Right? Okay. I was just gonna say that I was just going to ask, because I think that is such a another one that is more common right now where people just kind of make that assumption. And if someone is, you know, if they do happen to be in relationship with someone who is of the opposite gender, that then there's this will, how can you possibly be right? Well, it's all about understanding. So I think this is part of the education, right part of having this conversation is just to get a better understanding and, and kind of that space to be like, Oh, to really ponder it, and to assess that and to just kind of add it to your like, Oh, this is this is possible, right?

Right. So somebody can be pansexual. And in a polyamorous relationship or monogamous relationship, or an open relationship. There is the very, there's a wide umbrella of ways that we can be expressing our partnerships, as well as our sexuality, as well as our gender as well as our eroticism, our romanticism, our intimacy levels. We are human. And in our human experience, it's vast and varied, and does not need to be defined by anyone but ourselves. So you can use these labels, you can not use these labels, I find the labels are helpful when explaining to people how I what I need to, but I also don't like being put in a box. So I can totally understand why people might want to push away the labels for the acts of the being able to explain what people are going through right now. You can use the label polyamorous if you're feeling as though you're able to hold space and love intimately more than one person. And that could be at the same time, over time. We house how you want to live with one and maybe love another from a distance. There's different ways you can express that. And it's very difficult to work through a polyamorous relationship. So if for people who are concerned that that's a way for somebody to be able to cheats, it is not the easy way. For sure, first of all, and if somebody is wanting to cheat, they're not really holding true love and romantic interests and both those people because they're being dishonest with one of them. That's not a healthy way to hold a relationship. They're not, they're not actually being polyamorous. Well, they're

cheating. Right? Right.

And there's more coming soon on a podcast.

And with that, we are going to leave you all sitting on the edge of your seats. We'll be back with more in a couple of months. You're gonna have to wait.

I'll even share with you my experiences going through all of this. So come back again.

Okay, well, we're definitely we will definitely do that. You all are just gonna have to wait for more detail. This was like the circus. Like we kind of you know, we skimmed the surface. Good. We did X time we're gonna swim. Next time we're gonna get water up furnaces.

Absolutely.

Oh my gosh. Oh, thank you. Thank you. This was so fun. And I'm just I learned so much today and I love that so thanks. Oh, yay.

Was fun talking with you.

Yes, and we will. Everything will be in the show notes and social media and all over the place. And so everyone you know, you're I can learn how to find Lori how to work with Lori, how to follow Lori how to learn more. So, we are all good.

Great seeing you all.