Animals and Mental Health: Uncovering the Beneficial Connection with Daniel Maigler

Welcome back, I am really happy you are here, that you are taking time for yourself. And I'm honored that you're spending it here with me. While we tend to focus on mental health topics at specific times of the year, I really believe we ought to make it part of our daily conversations. Think about the things that we do automatically every single day to take care of our physical health. we brush our teeth, we eat healthy foods, or we at least try to most of the time, right? We exercise. We maybe even take extra vitamins or supplements. And we proactively take care of our physical bodies because we know we are potentially susceptible or genetically predisposed to certain diseases. But what do we do automatically to take care of our mental health? Do we meditate? Do we do breathing exercises? Do we talk to a therapist or other support person? Do we take a moment when we need it instead of white knuckling it? Do we talk about taking care of our mental health in the same way that we talk about taking care of our physical health, they are intertwined and they directly affect the other.

My guest today works daily to normalize mental health and when necessary, advocate for those who need it. Daniel Maigler is a therapist and a high school counselor with over 20 years and 1000 clients worth of experience. He is insightful and is one of those beautiful humans who can connect teenagers in the most authentic ways. Dan is my neighbor on the north shore of Chicago. He serves on the board of Paws for Patrick, which we will learn about in a few minutes. And he is the host of the podcast Not Allowed to Die.

Welcome to Just breathe parenting your LGBTQ team, the podcast, transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath. And know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the just breed nests. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey. I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Well, Dan, thank you so much for being here with me today. And I'm really excited to have this conversation about one of my favorite topics, which I think is I don't know if that's the best way to say that. But I really do enjoy talking about mental health and sharing. People are experts on the topic and people who just have so such a wealth of information. And so I am delighted that you are here. And one of the things that you do that we learned we learned about each other when we were talking earlier was that you are on the board for this extraordinary. It's located in the Chicago area, which you and I actually are both in, which is also very cool. We found out and I had heard about this amazing organization. It's called pause for Patrick. And so I thought we just start with that because I know everyone would love to hear about this organization, why and why it is so very important.

Well, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I am as I've told you a big fan and I do recommend your podcast to people. So like it's it's fun to actually be like not just listening to your voice but actually be a conversation. So, posture Patrick was an organization started by the roamer family after they lost their son Patrick in May of 2020 to suicide, and I was Patrick's school social worker and knew him from his freshman year all the way into his senior year. And so obviously it had a major impact on me. And in after he died, there was a GoFundMe that got put together by people who cared about the family and the family said we don't necessarily need this money, we want to take it and use it to help other people like Patrick. And Patrick was not a huge fan of regular therapy. You know, he tried it, he didn't like medication, he didn't want to do any of those things. What really helped him when he was struggling, was his dog, Cece, and being with his dog. And so Patrick's parents were thinking, Hey, how can we bring the love of animals to the people who need it the most. And so they got people together. And so posture Patrick has two main services that are provides, we have therapy dog handlers who and this is all around the Chicago area, but primarily up in Lake County, or right on that borderline of Lake and cook, where our team of therapy dog handlers, we have 25 of them, who will go to schools or mental health treatment facilities, and bring dogs therapy dogs to young people so that they can spend some time with them. And it has an incredible impact, they just light up. And everybody loves seeing the dogs anytime that they're there. So if anybody ever wants to learn to be a therapy dog handler or training, our tells more spreads information about that. And if you are a person who has a therapy dog, we would love, we're always recruiting more volunteers around that area. But the other thing we do is we help anybody all around the country, we focus on young people that young people is a pretty loosely defined term, we've had our oldest client has been 89 years old, down down to like down to six. So anybody with mental health disorders again, but our focus is on young people to get an emotional help them get an emotional support animal. So we have a budget where we can help people acquire an emotional support animal, and even get some basic training. So not service animal or therapy, dog training, but the kind of just obedience training, which would mean that if they're living in department, they wouldn't get in trouble with annoying their neighbors and whatnot. And then I and other members of the therapists team, we will write emotional support animal letters free of charge, I'm actually doing one of those after we get off of here today, for people so that they can have their animal in their dorm, or in their apartment, because we just believe that it can be transformational. And even if you have a great therapist, your therapist not going to pick up the phone at three in the morning. But you can hug that dog that cat and you know that therapy, bird emotional support, animals don't have to be they can be anything, any animal that just connecting with it can help person to feel better. And Patrick was not LGBTQIA but a couple of his really good friends are and we're and you know, we've helped them and just in the queer community I know I work with a lot of kids that for so many people when when chosen family is a thing that people are having to create, often their furry friends are main was a huge part of that chosen family. So we want to again particularly reach out to the people who are listening to this to realize, you know, again, any kind of if a person has a mental health disorder, anxiety, depression, anything like that closer, Patrick who has a place that they should go to look for maybe some help and support.

I love that so much and I love that you explained the difference between a therapy animal as opposed to an emotional support animal because I prior to a speaking had didn't really know that there was a difference. And it makes a ton of sense. But you know kind of relate to your point I know that you have behind you your emotional support animal Mariska is your podcast guest host and I'm so happy that she's on with us now too. And, but having that I mean, I have two dogs who are, you know, the biggest dangling is in the world, but they the joy and the comfort. And it is extraordinary. You know, when he I always think especially when I'm petting my one dog like you could have like the most like, like the worst day ever, right? And you sit down and you pet that dog and it is amazing what that does for you. Right. And so I'm delighted I love that that is what you do for people not just here in the Chicagoland area but all around the country, and really help educating on you know that piece because also to your point, a traditional therapist isn't for everyone. And it's not necessarily accessible, either. So this is just a lovely piece to know, oh my gosh, this, this can work. And this is why it works.

Right. And that's just again, like, anybody can have a need and we're not working. It's not a competition. So for one person yoga might not be their thing for someone else it is but we should all be working together to find to cobble together what it's going to take for us to be our healthiest selves. And so that's where where we want to be. And also as you were kind of talking, we want to raise the awareness piece. And in the month of May posture, Patrick does a thing called Turner towns green around the Chicago area and we're trying to expand that to a lot of campuses. So for college students, if they're interested in helping promote awareness on their college campus, they can reach out to us or turn our campuses green. And we're looking for people who want to be sort of captains are leading it and getting there whether it's or fraternity sorority, whether they're part of the marching band, and they just want to help put up signs. So during that month, we're really maybe Mental Health Awareness one. So May and September are two big months of the year, September being suicide awareness month. And so we just but that may turn our towns Green is a really also a big, it's up around the north, up and down the North Shore in the Chicagoland area, you'll see the Turner talented applause for Patrick Turner Johns green signs. Yeah.

Yes, that is. So I'd love that. I'm sitting here thinking, Oh, my goodness, my my daughter who is at the University of Michigan, I mean, she would be all over that. And just knowing you know, both of my kids, my older two who are away at college, who do they miss the most dogs, they cannot wait to get home to be with these dogs. And you know, and just like the what, what they do for them. And so it is something that if you stop and think about it for two seconds, you know, whatever your animal is right? For us, it's our dog, some people it's their cat, or like their bird, you said, right? Or their, you know, gigantic, you know, Dragon. Those those things, right? Because I and I'm saying that because I'm remembering that my daughter, my younger daughter, her freshman year, and they have an area and hers high school that was kind of an emotional support area. And they and I'm totally drawing a blank on the name of this creature. But it was like a big gigantic lizard. And that was like the emotional support lizard. And she loved this thing when she'd go on and pet it all the time.

Well, the title of your podcast, you know, just breathe so often, like, you know, it's hard when we're having anxiety attacks, we're the ability to slow down and to regulate our breathing is really challenging. And so a lot of the research shows that just while you're petting an animal, it does that grounding for us, it helps us to be in that moment and regulate along with them. And what's interesting, so Dr. Janet Oysterlock, of University of Toledo has done a lot of research that cats are actually somewhat more effective than dogs in helping people to just that regulate that breathing. But some of the other new research is that one of the great things about dogs is that when they make eye contact with us, and we're getting that eye contact, going back and forth, again, a different sort of sense of feeling known and connected with it helps to alleviate some of that loneliness, and that sense of isolation. You know, one of the movies that I recommend to some people, and again, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's as good as it gets with Jack Nicholson. And I think it's Greg Kinnear, who plays his neighbor. And so the dog, and he's always with the dog, but it's you can see that that dog is it's it's something that, again, is grounding him, it's making him feel not alone. And it's that level of connection. So I think for all of us, and we are, there's an excellent book that I can't recommend enough. It's called running with Sherman. And it talks about that intersection between our exercise our mental health, and that as a species, we grew up alongside of animals. And so like we couldn't have come as far as we did without the domestication of dogs. And so it's only actually, in the second half of the 20th century, that we've gotten away from spending so much time with animals that were a lot of we are wired to live living alongside them and having them in our lives. And so when we're not doing that, we're losing something. So

wow, that is phenomenal. I, it makes total sense, doesn't it, but it's something that you just don't even think about or realize. And because things are so fast paced, and so fast moving. Most of us do not take the time to really stop and think about that. Think about what that connection, you know, having that connection and what that connection is doing for us and for them. Right. And so I just applaud what you all are doing. And I'm so grateful for it. And and I you know, it's funny being in the area, I knew of pause for Patrick, but I wasn't entirely clear on exactly. So I'm so grateful now to know this, that they can, you know, at least be a voice if nothing else.

That's all we ask for it. And sometimes people are saying, well, it just feels too good to be true. Like what do you mean you're not? You're you're not charging anything and you're not you don't want anything from us just know all we want is for people to pay it forward. And there is a lot if you go online and you look about emotional support animals there is there is a lot of there are a lot of controversies among even some people who are really supportive of them about criticizing agencies that write emotional support animal letters, because they may feel like okay, well you're gonna ruin it for all of us. You know, the laws have been there to protect having emotional support animals, but there are organizations, for example, cert, a pet is an organization where people can go on there, and they get an interview set up with a clinician, and it's all legitimate, it's all legal. And they, you pay your 150 bucks, and you get your emotional support animal letter. And so there are critics, though, who will say, Well, you know, that's not really a relationship, they don't really know the person and is that legitimate? And so it all depends, state by state, different states have different regulations. But the point is, it doesn't take it, you know, as a clinician, and when I've been doing like, I've had to have come up with diagnosis of people in 15 or 20 minutes when I'm working in the emergency room to determine what course of treatment are we getting. So the way it works is when i The law says that in order for me to write a letter for someone about an emotional support animal, I need to know that in my clinical judgment, that person has a disability, that can be made better by being with an animal. And so and then I also that relationship is what I pause for Patrick, though, we make sure our relationship is ongoing. So that if that person was to have a problem, like, gosh, I thought that having an animal was one of, again, one of Patrick's friends who got a dog, he thought it was going to reduce his stress, but being a college student, and having sharing a space, even though his friend, his roommates were on board with having the dog, the dog that he got, was having a barking issues. And so posture, Patrick, we paid extra to get some extra training for that dog, but it still was causing more stress than it was relieving. And so in that case, we helped we were alongside and helped him find the way the proper way to rehome that that animal, so it didn't add more feelings of guilt and sadness. So that's, and I think that's what critics would be saying, you know, it shouldn't just be a, you pay your 150 bucks, you get your letter that it's all over. But that's why we want to be all along the way with people throughout their journey.

Right, which is so important. And that is a great example of, you know, what could, you know, one thing that could potentially happen, so that is really, really good to know. And, and I think that, you know, circling back to your college initiative. So huge. I mean, really, really, so huge. And just raising, raising awareness, and letting people know that that is an option, right? Because I think, you know, at the base of all of this is, there are options, right? So which also kind of circles me to your podcast, which is so wonderful, it's called not allowed to die. And, because, and I, I know that you named it that for a number of reasons. But it is this whole, like, there's options like that's like kind of inferred in that, right. And it's there are options. Here's another one pause for Patrick, emotional support animals. Just having someone you know, somebody in your school, you are a social worker in your school, you also do all of this work with LGBTQIA kids. And so I think, you know, part of our work and is just kind of raising that awareness that there are, there's always an option,

right? Like the I'll tell it, I tell all the students in my LGBTQIA group, you know, about the, It Gets Better Project where they can go and launch videos and things. Because when you're when you're young, it feel and if you've been in pain for a long time, it's natural for you to assume that your future will mimic your past. And for them to believe. And what they need to see is adults and older people who are saying, I know what you're experiencing right now. But you got to not trust your gut here. You have to not trust your experience, and you have to trust me and us. But all these other people have made it. And so that's what that's what we're doing. You know, a lot of the time is saying let's let's project forward and try to create a belief for you that your future can be better than what your past was. And for so many of my my students who are in that group, their their connection again to other people to animals can sometimes help what an interesting thing that I didn't realize until I started doing the groups is the Zodiac, you know, and why. So when we go around and introduce ourselves in group, kids will say their name, their year, their pronouns, and they, they'll the kids spontaneously started sharing their zodiac signs. I love that. I didn't realize till there, there used to be a podcast called Nancy, that was a, it was a great podcast about LGBTQ issues. And it was an NPR podcast, and it stopped running, but you can go back to the archives of it's fantastic. But what kinds of things were in the queer canon? And the zodiac? You know, I didn't realize part of the reason why it's in sort of queer candidates, because so many kids don't feel at home in the spiritual realm that's set up, you know, by what their parents did. And so it's giving a different way of whether it's Wiccan or whether it's whichever else to say I can I can explore something different for me, instead of saying, Oh, that's weird. Let's not do that. To say you How can we make this work for you, let me find out what it is about, you know, so even if I don't necessarily the big believer in astrology, but I can see how that might be working for you how that might be helping you, because it's making you feel like you're creating this again, if we mentioned, chosen family well chosen, recreating our universe. So that's so much of the piece with mental health and with awareness is to say, instead of just reducing the stigma, to start to reframe it, and realizing that every challenge is an opportunity. And the things that make us different, if it's anxiety, or anxiety can be my superpower, depression can also be my superpower, because it can increase my empathy. And so and being different, and again, it's not an accident, that all the greatest artists in history were queer. You know, it's like, there's something about us that are, you know, like that there is to embrace that your difference is in this a different perspective that you're bringing, and how can we bring that to the table? So that's what I'm not allowed to die on my podcast, I'm always trying to explore different aspects of mental health, and saying, what's, what's something that might have struck me as new? And how can I amplify that out to more people? And with that idea of hope, and that we can take that somewhere different?

Mm hmm. Oh, goodness, I that is just fantastic. And I do like that, and I, you know, I want everybody to go listen, because mental health is something that we all can learn more about, right? There's always more to learn and more to be aware of, and as we grow and learn, then there's that much more that we can understand. Right? And that we can see in our kids or see in our partners or see in people we love right? And ourselves and be able to find the supports that work. And, and it is different for every you know, for everyone. And I love that that's such a fantastic example about the the Zodiac because I remember when, you know, when Connor initially was like, oh, yeah, I'm totally interested in that. I was like, Huh. And I was so and I was more just, like, perplexed about it, because I was like, Well, I mean, okay, great. I we're all learning all these other new things, might as well throw that on the table. And, you know, and quite honestly, like, we had to take our, you know, how I was traditionally brought up, right, and how I was programmed. And I had to blow that up, and completely come up with something, you know, refigure, and reconnect. But that's mine, right? Like, that's not Connors, that's not the rest of my kids to figure out. Like, each person gets to have their own spiritual connection and the way that they want to have a spiritual connection, or not have one? That's right. That's their prerogative. And so I think that that's such a, that is something that so many, you know, are queer kids, but I think, you know, many young people in general really identify with that. So, Bravo for adding that to the to the year pronouns Zodiac.

But in the book, the courage to be disliked, and I know it's a it's a champion translation from a Japanese book, but they they talk about the idea that, you know, our Adler says that we need two real things to be happy. One is a greater overall mission in life, and two is good interpersonal relationships. And I think whether or not even when, no matter if a person is atheist, or really part of Christianity, or Orthodox faith of some sort, it's all really just trying to explain why are we here? And what am I doing. And for all people, it doesn't matter who you are, you need that sense of mission and purpose. And so for me, and again, realizing that through great suffering, we can maybe find what we were meant to do. And I know for again, for Patrick's family and for whatnot, like that idea of this, it's they would never choose this, but now they've taken this terrible situation. And they've turned it into something. And for me, and I think most therapists or social workers or people like that they went through their own struggles or things like that, and and then saying, now how can I channel my pain into a learning that I can share for you bringing the taking this podcast and counter story and saying, How can I make this a mission so that we don't have to have anybody feeling like they're, they're doing it wrong, that they're doing life incorrectly because there isn't a single right way to do it? And so that's why you know, for me and what I tell my students, my kit, my own children, is, you know, we just want I want everyone to feel like I want to try to reduce the suffering on this planet, no unnecessary suffering. I think some suffering is necessary to help us become the people we need to be right but that we don't need to let's not take you don't get extra points for suffering. So let's add extra on that we do and and who is it serving and why am I carrying it along with me? So that's trying to figure out so whether it get doesn't matter Are what community you belong to, we all belong to multiple communities. My my nephew, who is he came out as gay when he was 13. He's now 16, he actually got kind of a little irritated, because we were so enthusiastic for his queerness that we were buying him rainbow, this and everything else that and he's like, like, this is one aspect of who I am. This is not the only aspect of who I am. So sometimes in our enthusiasm for a person, oh, you're into skateboarding, everything's about steeper, it's like, no, we are all we all contain multitudes. Right. So like that, say, you know, just and then and then also, our interests or our the degree to which we're impacted by a mental health disability, or the degree to which we're where we're at lining up in our identity can be fluid, and we're all capable of change over time. And we shouldn't act as if, wait, and so so many parents are, well, my kid can't possibly be depressed because I saw them laughing with their friends the other day, and it's well, at the same person who's really depressed can also have a positive moment. Just generally happy people can cry sometimes. So allow, allowing for everybody to be fluid in all aspects of their life. You know, it's something that we all instead of deciding, we want though, people to fit into certain little boxes. And, and sometimes we're afraid with whether it's mental health diagnosis is like, Oh, I'm bipolar? No, you are a person who has bipolar disorder, you know, a person, you are not a depressed person, you know, you are usually a person might be okay, I am gay, or identify as a lesbian or whatnot. And that's fine. That's great. If that's doing you that it's working for you, just like I am a Bears fan. It's not really working for me, but I am. But again, that might be that may be fluid, my investment in the team maybe?

I don't know Bears fans are pretty, pretty intense and die hard. I

mean, unfortunately, yeah. So

still, oh, my goodness. Well, I think yes, I mean, that as such, those are really, really great examples. And we are so complex. I mean, human humans are complex. Right. And which is one of the most beautiful things, I think, that's part of this, this growth is embracing that idea. And, and as we, you know, I'd support our kids and, you know, embrace our kids and power our kids through adolescence, whether it it does include, you know, coming out as LGBTQIA, or having a mental health disorder, helping them realize that that is, I mean, I love that your nephew was the one who called you out on it, right? Yeah, that, because that is something that, and especially at that age, holy cow, I mean, he is a really mature kid to be like, Hey, this is just part of me. Like I it is not all of me, because I think that is a very, that's part of the beginning of the coming out process, right is where it is your complete identity. And I think that goes for also, you know, if you are, you know, really understanding, like beginning to realize, Okay, I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, for example, I have anxiety, that that becomes my entire world, because I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to figure out how, you know, what are my coping mechanisms? What are my tools available to me? And then how do I just make that a piece? Right? Like, it's just a piece. And as I continue to work with it, it can become a superpower. Right? And I've watched this with my my girls, especially, who each struggle with different types of mental health disorders and, and even in the trying to figure out like, Okay, what what exactly are you struggling with? What is the struggle? What is the disorder? How do we support What are you What support do you need here? To get you here, right, and then it's going to change again, right? But I do appreciate you really fully illustrating how we are these beautiful complex beings and it's not necessarily to cling to that like one identity factor, just one thing. When that's in

so for so many of the students I work with I have right now I'm working with 15 Transgender gender non binary students on my caseload. And so, and things like, you know, if they're having a really bad day and mental health challenges, but they've also just started testosterone, they can have this fear of, well, if I let my parents know that I'm struggling, maybe they're gonna second guess their decision to help me start taking tea. And you know, and then also one of my guys, he, he also had a really bad ear infection this week, and it's just like, okay, just because wouldn't it be great in a scientific study? We could say, Okay, we only have one variable. Unfortunately, life does not work that way. The Yes, you have to deal with the ear infection while you're also starting testosterone and you might also be struck Dealing with your anxiety really badly and for this guy like where he just he just got a new his parents got him a new emotional support animal his his bunny that he had hoped to take to college one day died. And and so you know then then okay, well now let's try a cat. Well the first cat that they tried, and this was not he didn't do it through foster Patrick they just did it on their own I did encourage them to check the the first cat we just kept biting his head in the middle of the night, just little kitten super cute. But if we were not getting good sleep while we're also having mental health challenges, like that wasn't working, and then the grief of Oh no, I'm a terrible person because I can't, they ended up swapping out cats at the, at the place where the shelter and the shelter was great about but all the feeling of I'm such a failure, and I'm abandoning this cat and whatnot. So again, our lives as you say it that complexity. But it really is. And so again, for so many, particularly of the LGBTQIA kids, it's like that's one more aspect. It is one it's but there was a great experience. Recently this last week, we had a student who she was recently diagnosed with should have freshman but finally recently diagnosed with autism. And she's like, I've been kind of knowing this about myself for a while she has major depressive disorder, anxiety, and autism, and her underpants trying to come to terms with that. And she just also decided to finally come out to her parents this last week. Yeah, so parents are kind of reeling with a lot of that. And they've all they really wanted was her to have some friends, because making friends has been super difficult. But the great thing is that now joining that LGBTQ group, those kids have been such a welcoming community. And we have a number of students who are, you know, and again, that particularly our aerospace kids are several of them are on the spectrum. And so it's like the some kids who are really understanding and open to and supportive of people who are, you know, maybe built a little bit differently, or anything like that, as opposed to so almost I were joking. Her older sister also at times struggle with building friendships and whatnot, as we were joking, like, Oh, I wish your poor older sister had been queer because she could have had this community stuck being heterosexual. So she doesn't have that. Anybody to support her just but yeah, so So sometimes having all those things at once, can feel terrible. But other times we can realize that there is for each one of these aspects of who I am. There's a community where I can find connection and strength. And whenever possible, can we flip that dilemma on its head? And start to say no. Now, that's not to say we can't mourn the sadness of the way we thought things were going to go that they're not going to go that way. But at the same time, now, after mourning that for a little bit now, let's say Okay, but how where's the new opportunity that's hiding? Within? Right.

Right. Well, and I, you know, I think that is a vitally important piece that I do. I wish I would have thought of this earlier when we were talking. Because it is something that I do talk about a lot, which is the mourning of the movie reel. And it's not just for parents to do when their child comes out, it's for any human being to do when their life, you know, changes in some way that they weren't initially, which I mean, let's be, let's be honest, I mean, who's does it to some degree, right. But I think it is very important to have that mourning period. And that doesn't mean that you're in denial, or that you're angry, or that you're mean you could be, but it just means that that's a very important piece, to allow yourself that sadness to allow yourself that grief, so that you can then move forward. And so nothing to feel shame, ashamed about or should feel shame about. So there was a book too, that popped into my head that I love, love, love. It's called differently wired. Okay, and I have had the actually the author on, she was my book coach, as well. And she wrote this beautiful book, and her her child is on the spectrum is, is not LGBTQIA. But the this book is, I recommend it to everybody who has a kid who's differently wired, because it's really just a lovely way not only to realize the support pieces, but to really understand kind of the scientific side, right? And just to understand some of these, you know, chemical things that are going on and all of this type of stuff. So that's my

right, I actually literally wrote that one down. So

we're taking turns here, I have like a ton of things. I'm like, Oh, that's a good one. Oh, I need to recommend that. That's great. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. And I did want to ask, just you know, as for your recommendations, because I know you are a huge podcast listener, and just working with so closely with LGBT TQ a teenager's first, podcast recommendations. Second, any advice that you would give to parents?

Well, so I'll start with, yes. I mean, I could go on forever about podcasts I love, I think, for anything by Brene. Brown is you're always going to be going the right direction. So whether it's unlocking us or dare to lead, understanding the science behind vulnerability, shame and whatnot is great. The happiness lab is with Laurie Santos, really beneficial. I, again, for some people, you and I have talked, we're both fans of Dan Savage. But for some people, it's a lot. But I do think, you know, he will make you think. And so the savage love podcast is going to push your boundaries and think about things that you have never occurred to you before. And so the great thing is, he doesn't expect listeners to always agree with him. And he has people who, you know, I love how he has people come on and take him to task about different things. But so those are just some that I start with Nikko. Peraza is another podcaster. Who, gosh, what's the blanking on the name of his podcast, I'll get it to you. But just like, again, serve the ego feed the soul. And that was one that was recommended, recommended to me by some of my students, so that like, just again, I always love the ones that are recommended to me by my clients or whatnot, because they must be onto something there.

Yes, exactly. Well, I mean, what better way to understand we're listening to what our kids are listening to, right? I mean, that is a good way to understand just another little piece of understanding and, and, you know, learning, so I love that. And then you know, working with we you've already shared so much about, you know, working with the things that you you learned from the kids and the kids share with you, but what are just some, like really key takeaways for parents who either their child has just come out to them, or they're going into the holidays, like, what are some things that the kids really want their parents to know?

Well, again, first of all, and that, to listen to your kids and to speak with them directly about how relationships and to make your kid feel like they are the priority over any other of these external relationships. I know, one of my clients, his younger sibling came out as trans and just decided that didn't want to have didn't want to do holidays with some other parts of the family who had shown they'd never said anything overtly homophobic. But they have been really judgmental about other racial groups and things like that. And this younger sibling, you know them and the sibling is gender non binary. And so saying, like, I don't want to do you can tell them I came out or whatnot. But I don't want to interact with these people, because they've made me feel just generally unsafe. And as a family, just honoring that, and not saying, well, we need to suck it up for grandma, or do anything else like that. I do think grandma's get underrated and what they can handle. I mean, when we think about if we just do some math, a lot of grandmas were like Woodstock level age, you know, so they were probably doing some other things in their youth. So I think we should give them a little bit more credit and stop trying to protect everyone, but mainly taking things at the pace of the kids and honoring that and making sure that if they if that kid needs to not go to certain other family members homes, that okay, we can make another plan, we can make things smaller, because we want to make you feel like you are not a burden and add on and that anybody who doesn't accept these things about you is we're not going to prioritize their feelings over yours is that really, really hurts for a lot of the kids. So that's something I think just having those frank discussions and saying, It's okay to not know the answer. It's okay to say, hey, we're still working through this. Kids, our teachers are all the time talking to me about oh, no, I'm afraid I'm gonna mess up so and so's pronouns, or I did it the, the kids are always incredibly forgiving if they feel like your heart is in the right place, and you're trying. And so as long as you're saying, Hey, here's where I'm at right now. And let me think about, you might have to give me some time to think about how I need to handle this conversation, this other thing, but at the end of the day, the most important thing to me is that you feel supported, then kids are there elated. But it's when they feel like it's when they feel like they are something that may be an object of shame that needs to be hidden away in some direction, that that causes lasting scars, and it feelings of embarrassment and shame. So these kids are they've been carrying so much of this for so long. And that's what we we often forget when we're saying, Hey, are you sure this by the time a kid tells a parent or any other family member that they think they might be queer, trust me, they've been wrestling with it. But and the vast majority of them, part of the queer experience generally is an ongoing questioning. And even in the community things like I know you talked about on your podcast about what about bisexuality or More and more kids identifying as being pansexual. Because, you know, again, it's something that it's a process, there's nothing wrong with continuing to be fluid and figure things out and to have things change. So it doesn't mean that the person wasn't sure. And it doesn't mean any damage will occur. And I think that's parents have this fear, it's like, they're, they're nervous as if their kid was getting a tattoo on their forehead of like, okay, I am this and it's like, we don't, we don't, we don't have to lock in, it's okay to just make it one day at a time. So that's what I guess I would advise them.

Perfect. I could not have said it any better. It's beautiful. Thank you. And so important. And so, you know, it's part of that shifting from the focus on the external and the fear. And really, once you shift that and kind of let that go, and have your focus, be your kid. It makes things so much easier, and really takes the anxiety level down. So great. Well, thank you, thank you so much for being on my show. I appreciate it. And I'm so I'm just really thrilled that everyone has gotten to hear all of this is just a fantastic amount of information and, and so different and needed. So thank you, thank you for sharing and for everything that you do every single day.

Well, thank you for the opportunity to come and spread the word particularly about posture, Patrick, and if people want to they should please go to the website at posture patrick.org. I used to say posture Patrick dot o RG but then somebody made it sound like I was they thought I was saying orgy which would be more of a dance thing. So anyway, but it's posture patrick.org If you think that that might help you. Yeah,

I'll never forget that now.

So thank you for though, for letting me come on and talk about that.

I really, of course. And then really quickly, again, your podcast if you my

podcast is not allowed to die. And it's on Apple podcast, and Spotify. You can find it either of those.

Awesome. All right, well, this will all be in the show notes as well. So you can click through and check it all out. So Dan, thank you so much, and have a great, great rest of your weekend. Yeah.