Healing from Miscarriage and Infant Loss with Guest Natasha Virani

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Hello and welcome back to the I am mom podcast. Today we're going to be talking about infant loss. Infant loss is characterized as a loss of a baby after 20 weeks, we will also be touching upon miscarriage. Both are often painful and traumatic. It is possible to find healthy ways to cope. And today we have very special guest Natasha virani. With us today. Natasha works in an independent school as a middle grades counselor while simultaneously operating her private practice Love and Light counseling. And the focus of Natasha's counseling in a private practice as a registered therapeutic counselor has changed over time. She works with women experiencing pregnancy and infant loss, infertility and stuckness. The evolution of Natasha's direction and counseling stems from her own personal experience with miscarriage, infertility, and infant loss. We are so happy to have you here with us today. Natasha.

Thank you. Welcome, Natasha, thank you for being with us.

So Natasha, I briefly spoke about your personal experience, if you could elaborate on that for us and tell us what your personal experience around miscarriage in fertility and infant loss has been?

Sure. I hope you have the time. It's a long story. It's actually the story started about 10 years ago, when I decided that I was ready to have kids. And I talked to my husband and we decided that we were not going to be careful when having intercourse. And literally the first time we tried, we got pregnant. And I remember telling him and it was a special way that I told him. And literally a week later, I started feeding. And so that was my first experience with miscarriage. And that was really, really hard. I think we have even told my parents to and I just I didn't understand why that was happening. And I didn't talk to anybody about it, because I didn't know that it was common. And so then I just kind of picked up the pieces. And we we we let my body go through the process of the miscarriage. And then and for me at that time, it was much like a heavier period. And, and then, you know, we we try it again. And again. The next time we tried, we got pregnant, and this time I was a little bit more cautious. And when we went for because my doctor knew that we had had a miscarriage he had scheduled, I think an ultrasound at around eight week. And there are no words for how it feels to go for an ultrasound. And the ultrasound technicians don't tell you anything anyways, they're often kind of abrupt. They're like, Oh, your doctor will give you the results and you're like, but is everything okay? And you think you're going to get answers, but then you don't.

But nothing prepared me for her saying, oh, what was the age? Or what was the conception date? Or what is your due date? And your baby's supposed to be this many weeks? Oh, oh, I'm seeing something smaller. Oh, your doctor will give you the result. And like she basically shooed us out of the room and told us that she hadn't heard a heartbeat. And so while she didn't tell us that everything was not okay. She also didn't tell us that everything was okay. And this was around Christmas holidays and so My doctor had called me right before Christmas and said, Hey, you know, often, you know, we can have dates wrong. So let's try another ultrasound in a week. And so I had to go over Christmas thinking I was pregnant, and go for another ultrasound. And that's when it was very clear that there was the demise of the fetus. And, you know, like, things were starting to get even smaller than what they should have been. And so then my doctor said, you know, you have a couple options, you can take a medication to expedite the miscarriage process, where you can let it pass naturally. Or we can have you in for a DNC, but because it's the holidays, that won't happen until January, and I thought, Okay, well, let me try and see if things will just kind of go naturally. And as I went through New Year's, like, I still felt pregnant. So I was bloated, my breasts were tender. I felt like I had kind of a tummy. And I didn't feel great. And so it's a terrible feeling to go through a time where you celebrate a holiday with your family and your friends, or you celebrate a brand new year. And essentially, what I felt like was, I was walking around with a dead baby in my body. And, and I didn't know how to talk about it with anybody because I was feeling pregnant, but I wasn't pregnant, but I was still pregnant. But what was in me was not alive. And then the baby wasn't passing, like, I continued to feel pregnant. And I remember towards the end of January, I called my doctor and I was just in tears. And I said, I don't know what you need to do. But you need to get me into a hospital. And you need to get this out of my body. Because for my own mental health, I can't do this anymore. And so when you do a DNC in a hospital, often they will look at the material that they take out of your uterus and test it for genetic abnormalities are just trying to figure out what happened. And so they did that. And so then I get another call back from my doctor, and he said, Oh, you have something called a partial molar pregnancy, which essentially means that there were too many chromosomes. So either two sperm fertilize one egg, or there was some kind of division, but there were, genetically It was not viable. So what my body did was the right thing, which was to expel the baby or end the pregnancy. But my mind couldn't catch up with that. And then in addition to that, because when you have too many chromosomes, it actually is carcinogenic. And so then doctors will tell you that you need to wait a period of time. So in my case, it was six months, where we weren't allowed to try and I had to go every month, to make sure my HCG levels were decreasing, to ensure that there was no more pregnancy material in my body, because that, if any were to remain, it could actually cause cancer. And so now, I'm told, okay, you've had, you know, fetal demise, and you aren't allowed to try. And there's a possibility that you might have cancer, if any material remains. And so it's just, it was like doom and gloom and more gloom. And then my career wasn't doing very well. I was an educator at the time, and I wasn't able to land a contract in a school. So I was just kind of to seeing substitute teaching here in there. And it was difficult. And so then we didn't try, we didn't try. And then I guess we were given the go ahead and June, to try. And my husband and I were cautious. And I think I would characterize that as like a downtime in my life where, you know, I didn't really know what was going on. It was just a time where life and Time passed. But I wasn't really there or present.

And then we I took my husband out for his birthday. And I believe that's the time we conceived my older daughter, and I was pregnant. But I ignored the pregnancy because I didn't believe it to be true. Because my experience had told me that it's not true. And so we didn't tell anybody. We didn't talk about it. I ignored the pregnancy. Around 12 weeks, we went in to see my family doctor, and he wasn't there with somebody else. And he said, Well, Should we listen and I'm like, oh, like, I don't know. I don't know if we should do this. Like is it safe? Is everything gonna be okay? And it was an incredible feeling to hear the heartbeat for the very first time I've done this third time of, of trying and then we had a healthy baby but my delivery was really traumatic and, and there were so many things that went wrong with the delivery. And as a result, I was told I was rendered in fertile. And I didn't find that out right away. We tried for a couple years after we had my daughter, and we weren't getting pregnant, and I ran into my ob on the street, and she said, Come in, and I thought you were gonna have lots of babies. So come see me. And she gave me a referral to a clinic. And the clinic told me because of your delivery, and you had an infection, we believe one of your fallopian tubes is blocked, and the other one is probably not working, which is why you're not conceiving. So then we went into the road, down the road of infertility. And so we had to do a lot of tests, and be very, very patient. And we had to do IVF, because that was our best bet. Because history has told us every time we tried, we got pregnant, whether we had a miscarriage or we had a live baby, but and then after that, we were trying and trying trying, we weren't getting pregnant. So we decided to do IVF. And we got pregnant on the very first try. But I started bleeding. And I continued to bleed. And this wasn't just regular bleeding. This was I was almost passing out with the amount that I was bleeding. There were massive clots. Sorry, that's too much information. And it was it was painful in the sense that every time I didn't know if I was losing my baby or not, and I was a frequent flyer as they call it at the hospital. And I kept going in and and they kept telling me No, your baby is fine. You're just we think it's a sub chorionic hematoma. So what I found out also, which is very normal in pregnancy, is bleeding. So most pregnancies will have some kind of bleeding. And it's only when it's excessive, like mine was that it can be problematic. So they said the bleeding should stop around 13 weeks or so. And it did. And then it started up again around 16 weeks, and it continued to get worse. And when I had my 20 weeks again, they found my cervix to be very short. So I ended up having a placental abruption and giving birth to a baby girl. Her name is Nora jahaan. And she was 21 weeks and three days. And she was super cute, and really tiny. She had all her fingers and toes and all of her body parts. She had lots of hair. And she had a cute little belly button and the ridge above her upper lip was the same as my daughter's. She looked like my daughter too. But she was just too small. And they don't. It's a surreal experience to go through delivering a baby when nobody's concentrating on the baby's heart rate. Normally, when you're in delivery, the focus is very much on how is the baby doing? You're checking every 20 minutes, but nobody cared to listen. And that was difficult. And I know I asked to listen to her heartbeat. I know that about an hour before I deliver her she was still her heart was still beating. But she must have passed before I delivered her. And so when you when you have a stillbirth or you give birth after 20 weeks, you actually go through labor.

And so I had an epidural, and I delivered her vaginally but I lost because I was bleeding so much. I lost so much blood. It was a really precarious situation for me as well. And after I delivered her I got to hold her. And there is a lovely gentleman who works at the hospital actually, he's not employed by the hospital, but he comes in he me offers to take photos of you with your baby as a memory. And so I did that. And the hospital staff took nurjahan footprints and handprints and they wrote a little card about her height and her weight and everything and they gave me a keepsake box which was really nice and we still have that. And then we ended up having a funeral. I remember it being really hard to leave the hospital because I didn't want to leave her and I knew that I would never get to see her and so it was really hard to leave. And, and other people were coming in with flowers and when and I could see all of that, but no one came in to celebrate me and my baby. That was really hard and And the date of her passing actually is at the end of the month. So August is generally hard for me. And this year, it's five years. But eventually I left the hospital. And we waited some time because it took a little bit of time to arrange a baby caskets are tiny, very, very tiny. Then we had a funeral. And our close family came. And we originally planned to do a closed casket casket, but we did an open casket so that we can see her when she was still so cute. And what I didn't anticipate was that when we did open casket, I got to see her again. And when I looked at her, my breasts swelled with milk, and I started to leak milk. And so no one talks about when you deliver a baby that your body still thinks that there's a baby to feed them. So at the time, I didn't think about donation, nobody talked about donating the milk, I just, I wanted it to go away so that I could forget that it happened. So I tried all kinds of concoctions like putting cabbage in my bra so that I could dry up my milk. It was I stunk. It was terrible. It was not a good idea. But I just I wanted it to go away. And and I think I was in a grief fog. For months afterwards, I made all kinds of mistakes, including trying to fill diesel gas and my husband's sports car, which you can't do. And thank God, the nozzles are different sizes, because I wasn't able to be successful. But I was just making mistakes. And I was moving through life. And I couldn't tell you what I did during that time. And it was hard for my older daughter to because she really wanted a younger sister. And I had felt that she should see her in the hospital. But my husband didn't. And I didn't fight him. And to this day, she says, you know, you didn't let me see my sister. But then she saw her at the funeral. So I can rest that she actually didn't see her sister, but she really struggled. And for children, they need to talk about things. So she talked a lot at school about what had happened. And that was difficult for some of her peers. But her school was so understanding and they said, you know, we'll never tell her to stop talking. Because that's how she's processing. And we did some play therapy for her. But she, she seemed to really cope by sharing about it and telling my my parents that no, you have two grandkids and correcting people and telling people that Oh, my mommy had to has two babies. And she kept and still continues to keep Norge Han alive in our house. So she's now taught her little brother and her little sister about her. And, you know, we always pray and we go to the cemetery every August. And this year, we did a nice little ceremony with another family who lost their baby. And we just got together and connected over our babies at the cemetery. So that was nice, because it's five years. So

I think having my daughter actually help my older daughter helps all of us grieve, because she, she said, Oh, you know, when we're baking, we put nurjahan love into our baking and she pulls it out of the air and throws it into whatever we bake. And I feel like that helped me on a regular basis, because she's not forgotten. She's still there. But it's just different. So that's the story. I know, it wasn't very short.

Gosh, no,

that was just so beautiful. And I was listening to every single word you were saying. And thank you for being so open and vulnerable. And I know that there are a lot of people who will be able to connect with your story. So it's one that is very important to share for you for yourself, but also for others to hear as well. So thank you so much for sharing this with us. And I'm just so I mean, I knew some of these details, but I didn't know all of these details. And Natasha and I are really good friends and just seeing you like you are just so incredibly humble. You are so positive and the energy you bring out to the world is is infectious. So I just want you to know that and to know how special you are And for you to have gone through this. And to come out from it on the other end so beautifully, is very honorable. So you didn't mention now you went through miscarriage and infant loss. And I know that that distinction can be a little bit blurred for a lot of people. So if you could just describe what miscarriages compared to infant loss.

So typically, miscarriage is the end of a fetus. between zero and 19 weeks of gestation. There is a bit of a gray area between 16 and 20 weeks, but that's still considered miscarriage. And then at 20 weeks gestation is considered infant loss. And up to 20 weeks, generally, there's no delivery. They call like when it's later they call it a dv, dilation and excavation, which is a terrible term. But that's and there's very few doctors that do that in BC. And so that's the difference between the two and miscarriage is really common. It's very common up until about 13 weeks gestation. The number is when I had my miscarriage, it was one in five and now people doctors are reporting it's closer to one in four of all pregnancies. So whether it's your first or your 10th the stats are the same, and that have pride of miscarriages that are reported. So this doesn't count for people whose periods are late. And they don't know and they've just kind of had a miscarriage later and and they're not aware of it. So the number could be even higher.

And what about the physical symptoms? So I know you mentioned the bleeding, but are there physical symptoms that are different from the miscarriage and stillbirth in your body.

So I think everybody's body responds differently. Some people will cramp and some people won't, some people will have the miscarriage passed very easily. And others will experience a lot of bleeding, a lot of pain. I don't think that there's one way I do know that. With infant loss, you actually go through contractions and labor, you can get an epidural if you choose. It's it's different in the sense that it's a process and it takes time. But you're there's a focus process. Whereas with miscarriage, you have options, you can do a chemical ending to the pregnancy, you can have a DNC a dilation and cure securitise or you can allow it to pass naturally. So there's, there's still they're both a process but different. I don't know about the pain or how it feels, I think that would be personal.

And they I'm assuming with the infant loss, there's more postpartum symptoms as well, right with the milk coming in. And going through all of that just as delivering a baby you would go through.

Yeah, so there's, there's this symptoms of milk, they're coming in your uterus contracting, postpartum hair loss, your body is pregnant. And so eventually, you know, you still have to do your cables. And you know, your body then eventually loses the weight. In terms of benefits, you can go on maternity leave, but you do not get which is about 15 or 17 weeks that you don't get parental leave. And what they tell you is because there's no baby to look after, which is also really horrifying. But truth was you needed to take longer from an emotional perspective. And you can't afford to, you can't

there's so many layers to your story. Thank you so much for sharing that I I'm so amazed at the Triumph that you've come through all of this and to to be able to help other women in your practice with this exact this exact topic. It's It's really amazing. So thank you so much. I want to go back to when you experienced that first. That first time that you were Miss carrying the baby, and you had to go through the Christmas holidays, and all that kind of stuff. So the family usually families don't know. In the first trimester, it's not shared with the family or friends, because we're taught to, you know, wait until the end of the first trimester. So what were some of the feelings that you experienced during that time? with like, not being able to tell people or to tell the family that you were actually pregnant?

I personally felt really isolated and alone. And I thought there was something wrong with me and one with my body. And yeah, I think I was just really lonely. And, and my, my partner is amazing. But his body wasn't going through all of that. And so as awesome as he is, he didn't quite get it. And I don't think anybody else gets it until they go through it. And then once I was able to share, I can't tell you how many women approached me and said, I've had four miscarriages, I've had this miscarriage and I miscarried then or I miscarried. You know, 20 years ago, like women of all ages, came to tell me about their miscarriage. And I thought, wow, like, how strong are we as women to go through that silently without talking about it? with anyone, and then we just kind of go through it. And women are incredible. That and then I realized how how common it is. And that was surprising. So I think for me, I was just lonely and isolated.

And it could also bring up so many feelings of obviously guilt and disappointment and frustration going through the process of getting pregnant again. And there's so many myths, like women feel like they did something wrong. Or maybe I lifted this box, it was too heavy. Or, you know, there's so many myths around why the miscarriage happened. So women feel these, like they almost blame themselves, and what do you what would you say to a woman who, who feels that blame on herself?

What's so hard? I would, I would say that, you know, you're actually your body is doing the right thing, like literally, a million different things have to go right? For a baby to be born. So each of us are miracles, because we are here on this earth, and your body was doing the right thing. And it's a pregnancy was not going to be viable, then we need to rest and trust in our body that it was doing what was best. And even though that's hard, I would say trust your body, thank your body for doing what's right. And rest in the science. So I've used to teach biology. So for me, it was easier to understand the science aspect of things. And it, you know, as human beings, we want to find a reason. Is it that you worked out? Or is it that we didn't keep our legs up after we had intercourse for you know, 20 minutes or whatever? Or is it that I ran around with my other kids or I lifted boxes, or I worked too hard, or I had a glass of wine, or I did this, we want to find a million reasons to explain it, so that we can feel better about it. But the thing is, is that we don't we mean don't ever know the reason and and it happened. And it's not the woman's fault. I always tell her that she is not to blame. She is not alone and do not blame. And it's a process. And it takes time.

I think that's so beautiful. And just letting women know that it's not their fault, right, that they're not alone. Because I feel like there is still you know, we live in a world where things are very open and we feel like it's okay to share but there's still quite a lot of stigma around it. And there's quite a stigma around cultural societies as well within cultural societies I should say. And so a lot of that stigma is around that blame right that the mother is afraid she's going to get right that was it my habits What if someone thinks it was my habits, but it's not right. It's not the mother spot and I think just by you saying that. You are not alone. It is not your fault and you are supported is going to help a lot of people feel peace. Calm within themselves.

And that aspect of teaching, women are just giving them that concept that their bodies are amazing and doing the right things, our bodies work so perfectly, they're fascinating. The fact that we can get pregnant have a baby, but the fact that our body knows when it's not a viable pregnancy, that it's not a good idea to move forward. So it's just letting women know that they are fascinating and the way that their bodies work, and to trust the process and to have that self compassion is so important.

Speaking of self compassion, what are some things that you did that worked for you? And what are some things that you speak to with other clients that you have found works for other clients as well.

So in dealing with loss, I think it's I, I kept this mantra in my head, which goes, shared pain is lessened, while shared joy is increased. And so I encourage clients to share what's happening for them. Because the second that you say it to somebody else, the load is lighter, and it doesn't mean that you are burdening other people, or you're laying your burden on others, it just means that you're sharing the grief around or the loss around a little bit. And it makes it easier to bear. So share the loss is one thing, I encourage people to continue doing something that reminds them of who they are, so not losing yourself in the process. So for me, when we lost northern Han, I went headfirst into exercise, and really, really strengthening my body. And so I felt that that was good for me. I also did a lot of meditation and prayer. And I just surrounded myself with people that I knew could support me and be there for me, there were a couple of friends that were really instrumental in my healing. And that was really helpful. So just finding a way to share with them. So I, I talk to my partner a lot as well about Okay, what are we comfortable sharing? How can we, what are the words that we want to use? Do we want to say her name, and I try to use nurjahan name often because I don't get to use it all the time. It's not like I get to call her and you know, I don't have her running around. So every time I get say her name, I honor her in that way. So I also encourage women to find a way to honor their loss. So whether that's by naming their baby, having a goodbye ceremony, having a way to order their baby every year, including family and that we we get a we got a Christmas ornament for our daughter, we go to the cemetery every year, we pray every every time that we go to our place of worship, we pray for her soul, we think about her as I said in our baking or throwing her love in. And we just find ways to honor her regularly because she is a part of our lives. And then I encourage women to figure out how they want to share the loss with people who are not in their circle. So often, people will say, Oh, so how many children do you have? And it's like, oh, okay, how do I answer that? How do I be authentic? And, but without opening my heart to this stranger? And so, for me, I'll say, Oh, I have three babies. earthside and one in heaven? Or sometimes I won't say it at all, but in my heart, I say, Don't worry, nergi I got you. I know I had you. And so I it just it depends on every individual, but I encourage women to think about how they want to share their loss with other people. And so I hope that answers your question. I don't know.

Yeah, no, I those are, those are beautiful answers. And I think those are really great suggestions and really good strategies that people that women can use, when they are dealing with this loss. And you mentioned as well that with your older daughter, she also is part of the family and she experienced this loss as well. How did she process this loss? And I know you mentioned that she honored nurjahan you know, and she continues to do So, but what else did she do to process this?

she talked about her a lot. And she was trying to understand. So in the beginning days, she would ask me how come Norge Han died? And I would say, Oh, she came to sue. And she and she would say, Why did you let her come so early? Let me Why did you? Why did you have her so early? And then it was blaming, and I'm like, oh, how do I deal with this, because I don't want her to blame me. And then I was also triggered, because I didn't want to feel like it was my fault, because I knew it wasn't my fault. But it's difficult when a little person is suggesting that. So we just kept talking about it, we, we would say a prayer, we I allowed her to speak about nor Jehan as often and as much as she needed to. Because with children, their way of processing is they face things few 1000 times, because that's how many times they need to say it, to get it or understand it. We also found a really good place therapist. And we took her to see the therapist so that she could, I guess, go through the loss with somebody who wasn't her family member who could have her express it in another way with play therapy. So she used the sand tray a lot she used Playhouse and the person that we went to said, you know, she's really coping Well, she's doing great, because she's talking about it. So keep encouraging her to talk about it. And so we communicate with her school. And they allowed her to talk about it, and she still brings it up. And so, you know, at the start of every school year, I'm, I'm, I'm cautious. And I'm wondering, okay, do I need to tell the teacher that my daughter might bring up this baby that died? And you know, are they gonna think what are they going to think? And so, now I just let it come up. And if they ask me about it, I tell them, but I don't always. I don't preempt it now, because I don't need to. And if they don't believe where they don't believe her, and if they do great, you know, and if they want to ask about it, they can. And some teachers do. They'll say, you know, we heard that there was a baby that passed away. And then they asked about it. And we talked about it. So

how old? How old was your daughter when Nora Han passed away? For she was for such a delicate age? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how did it affect your relationship with her as a mom? And then how did it How did this infant loss affect your relationship with your partner? I mean, you've been through so many layers, with your fertility journey. And so how did your relationship get affected throughout the process?

So the way that my relationship changed with my daughter, I would say in the beginning, when we lost him or john, I wasn't really a mom, to to Leah anymore. I just kind of went through the motions, but I wasn't really there. And I think, probably that was a bit damaging for her. But I think I was just coping the best way that I could. And then I think I kind of realized that even though I wasn't going to be able to parent Norge Han, I still had another child, two parents. But that didn't, that realization didn't come until about four or five months after. I know that sounds terrible. But that was the way I I went through things. And so my relationship with Twilio changed in the sense that there was strain. And then there was a lot of love and compassion and, and gratitude for me because she helped me continue to honor Nora jahaan. And she reminded me of ways to remember her. And she reminded my family members of ways to remember her I remember her correcting my dad when he said, Do I have to get I only have one grandchild, he said, No, Nana, you have to remember nor Gee, she's dead. And my dad was just, I mean, he didn't know what to say. And he had tears. But I think she, she rounded everybody up. And her and I started doing date a little bit more. And so that was really nice in our relationship. In terms of my husband. I think that loss or any big, traumatic events that occur in a relationship, have the ability to make the relationship or break the relationship. And in our case, it really made Our relationship better. It sounds crazy. But we, we got through it together, we leaned on each other, we talked about things together. And our strongest bond is our faith. And so for both of us prayer and talking about our faith and the faith based aspect of what happened was very helpful. And so there were times where it was difficult. And I was mad at him, and I'm sure he was mad at me. But we always came back to doing this, connecting and bonding over the loss together, and we face it together. And a vision for me is just the two of us side by side walking together, forwards, holding hands. And it helps that we went through the process of a funeral, because I got to see him in our culture, only men carry the casket, or touch the casket, and I got to watch him hold the casket and, and lower it into the ground. And that, to me was powerful and strengthening as well. And anytime that we struggled, we just came back to each other, we always talked to each other. And we shared and I think he knows that August is tough for me. And I think it's tough for him too. And we just, we connect, as opposed to separating. And I think couples need to make a choice, when they have a miscarriage or stillbirth or when they go through infertility, they have a choice, whether they want to do that together and really include each other or not. And some couples will do it a lot, and some people won't. And it just has to be whatever work for them.

Such beautiful information. I'm so grateful for you to share all this with us like amazing strategies and just so enlightening. And of course, going through the process together with your partner, becoming the mom that that your child deserved after the loss. Like there's so much and the fact that you were able to process it all and move forward. It's It's incredible. I love everything you've shared with us today. What about couples who want to conceive after infant loss? Is that usually common? Or is it something that couples you know, shy away from after what what's what do you usually see in your practice?

I see a lot of fear and anxiety and I experienced the same. I I just encourage couples to seek help. But I think therapy is really good. I think focusing on the positive milestones in the sequential pregnancy is important. And just sharing that it's difficult. And having, you know, key people check it lots of couples do try again. And some couples don't. Some couples decide. But that's it for them. And that's their choice. There's no right or wrong way of going about it. But I but generally, the risk for postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety are higher with women who have experienced miscarriage and stillbirth and infertility, just because there's so many more layers to their journey. And so it's important that they seek support. And they find ways to cope with the anxiety of having a child after a lot.

It's just it's so it's so eye opening what you've shared today and just so touching. And so not just informative, but just very inspiring. Your story is absolutely inspiring. And how I'm really I, my mind is really connected to the point of how you said you have also connected with other families, and how you have been brought together by similar experiences, and have connected with them to share both the grief and the joy that your babies have brought you and I think that is just so so beautiful.

Now you need all moms need a tribe, right? And if there's somebody else who's experienced what you have, then all the feelings that you have, you can text them and say How are you feeling? list today or how is the last this year? It's helpful to have that support of someone who's been through what you've been through, you're not exactly the same, but very, very similar.

And that validation, I think, is also just really important as well. And Natasha, I know you work with a lot of moms who have experienced miscarriage and infant loss. And so what is one thing that you would say to them right now, someone who has recently experienced a miscarriage or infant loss?

The first thing is you're not alone. It's not your fault. And you can you can get through this one foot in front of the other. Just be in the moment that you are, and trust. And I'm here for you. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And where can people find you?

They can find me at WWE dot love and letter N light.ca. Love and Light counseling. They can email me they can call me. I'd love to support them any way I can.

And your Instagram.

My Instagram handle is Natasha Bahrani.

Okay. And your last name is spelled

VI r a n i

thank you so much for being with us today. Natasha. This was such a powerful episode. And we're so happy to have you here to share all this information and to share your personal experience. It's it's really blown me away and touched me on so many levels. So thank you so much. I love that quote, which I would love to reiterate here where you said shared pain is lessened while shared joy is increased. And that is such a beautiful takeaway from today's episode. So thank you.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Natasha, for joining us and for all of you for listening to the I am mom podcast.

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