Lessons In Trust, Courage And Teamwork

Well, hi, everyone. And this is an unusual podcast for unstoppable mindset, as well as another podcast you're going to hear about in just a moment. I'm Michael Hingson. We also have Saylor Cooper and Tyler Evans, right? Yes,

sir. Yes,

there you go. We got three of us. And we're going to be doing interviews for two podcasts today. This is going to be a lot of fun. So I'm going to start by just telling you, you're listening to me on unstoppable mindset. We're glad that you're with us. And we're gonna have a lot of fun with this today. And we'll get into why and all that in just a minute. But sailor and Tyler, why don't you go ahead and say what you'd like to say to start? Oh, yeah,

this is cool. So yeah, this is Saylor Cooper, with the Hope Without Sight Podcast, episode 24. And, right, yes,

this is Tyler Evans.

And he has said, we're going to interview each other on our podcast, so we're gonna do one, but we're gonna combine two podcasts into one unstoppable mindset and help well that site I like to introduce to all of you is very special, well known public figure, who has been blind since birth. He is best known for surviving the September 11 attacks. After escaping from the Sunday eighth floor of Tallinn along the World Trade Center. With this guide, dog, Roselle. He escaped down 78 flights of stairs, even leaving his home, his colleagues down to safety. And because of his actions, he is here today. And not only that he has changed the world so much, Michael, how you doing this morning?

doing really well. Thanks very much Saylor. And let me tell you about Saylor and Tyler just a little bit. Both of them were born in the early 1990s. Tyler in 1991, and Saylor's, the kid 1993. And both of them like me were born premature and all of us have become blind due to a circumstance known originally as retro Lencho fibrodysplasia. Now known as written up Theo prematurity. What it basically means is things happen to your retina when you're born prematurely, and you're given a pure oxygen environment. So you all are listening to three blind folks today.

And we have a we have an audience here, you will introduce yourself.

Well, I will introduce myself, because I am so proud of all three of y'all what you've donated to the society of especially working with blind individuals. But uh, my name is Tean Corey, and I am Saylor's grandmother. And so I'm going to enjoy listening to y'all as part of the audience. So y'all go for it.

Well, team, we want to hear all the gossip about Saylor. I have. I want the stories that has to

come out. I have to set up another interview because it's so long, good.

We can do that. Not a problem. Thank you for being here. Well, so sailor and and Tyler, why don't you just tell us a little bit about each of you. And kind of how you got started? Where you you know you obviously you were born in Texas. But tell us more about your lives growing up and so on.

Oh, well. Sure. Let's let's start at so yeah, I'm stay with Google. As it says in my bio. I was born in June of 1993. You Houston Texas in Congo, actually just not too far from where we are now.

And your mother, your grandmother drove your mother so that you could be born.

Oh, thanks for adding to that. Yeah. Yeah. And of course I was one three months prematurely. And of course that developed right now probably to maturity. However, I can see that I have a vision I have now thanks to one of the best doctors for right now with with HIV in the world, which is located in Detroit, Michigan. And so I was lifeflight it there at three months old and had like seven eye surgeries in both eyes. And what a coincidence because title to my right. saw the same talk to yes I did. And you want Yeah, yeah. And see if so thanks to him. I'm able to see where I could see now I could see in my vlog guys my best day And I could see shapes, colors, and pictures of distances. My main issue in my left eye is it's just like. So yeah, that's that. Between ages, between age two and three, I moved to the Cancun Riviera, Maya, Mexico, where I primarily grew up, became bilingual, both fluent in English and Spanish. Went to school there, up until eighth grade. Then I came back here to Houston, Texas area, I attended public school for a little bit, and then and then went to the Texas School for blind because I wanted to be like, environment exposed to more. And more folks, like me make sense. And I graduated high school in 2012, the two years of college, and I just, I just decided it just wasn't the right fit. So I, I got quite a few jobs and customer service, and recruiting and staffing, even some English and Spanish interpretation. And however, it's just been difficult to find a job. But not only that advance within a company due to the due to, as you say it, Michael, I love how you how you how you furnish this. It's not blindness is not the problem. It's the negative attitudes that society has on us. And employers are not willing to provide reasonable accommodations whenever they are legally required to. And so as a net result, that's why I'm pursuing entrepreneurship. I've started my blog with outside podcast, which focuses on people that will come challenges in life, along with the 24/7, internet radio station, real variety, radio, which plays all genres of music. Even some talk, and my goal is to just inspire others make money via affiliate marketing, membership services, premium media packages, who knows even writing a book? So yeah, that's, that's my life story in a nutshell. But

I want to get back to some of that in a little bit. But Tyler, how about you?

Yeah. Like, like Saylor. I was born three months premature in 1991. That was supposed to be born in May of 91. But I was born February of 91. And, okay, February, what? February 11 of 1991. Okay.

I'm February 24. So Okay, just checking.

I was life flighted to Detroit. I think it was like three months after birth, something like that. And I saw the same doctor as, as he did. And I was born in Shreveport, Louisiana, because that was the nearest NICU or NICU. And, yeah, one of my lungs actually collapsed when I was a baby. I think both of them might have, but praise God, I'm alive and doing well. And just growing up, I attended the also Independent School District, its Northeast Texas area, all my life. I lived mostly in the country for about 11 years. And it was at a Longview address, because Longview is northeast Texas. That's where I live my city. And yeah, and I grew up there had a pretty good childhood. And my mom actually fought for me so that I can be mainstreamed in class and her and I actually went to Austin twice so that we can rally the Texas legislature to pass a law and it passed. And so throughout my life, you know, I tended, I was in band and choir I was in band and sixth grade only. And my school district actually hired a blind lady to teach me Braille music. And all throughout my junior high like middle school, junior high and high school career. from sixth grade to my senior year. She would help me with music, getting brown music, and all that good stuff. And years later, I went to a Center for the Blind for independence, mi 202 and 2013 and I ended up seeing her again and she He went there. I'm like, check this up. Which center? Did you guys go to? Chris Cole rehab center in Austin, Texas, Austin, right. Okay. And of course, like him, I attended the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired in Austin. And also I attended a couple of other camps. I attended Lance camp during the summer. For a few years after a few years, though, I didn't want to go anymore. So I ended up not going anymore. I also attended camp Tyler, which is a one night camp for younger children. It's, I think, for blind people as well. And I believe that was in the fall of like, oh, 102 I think or three. I attended church camps with my church like Junior camp. And it was a lot of fun. And I also attended space camp in 2006. I went to Huntsville, Alabama, in September of 2006. And it was a lot of fun. And I believe I got high school credit for it. I ended up having perfect attendance that year. And I actually one to one a little bit of money for it. I thought that was pretty cool. So yeah.

And then you then you went on to college as I recall.

Yes, I did.

And oh, and by the way, my backtrack. One thing we are common we have in common is we both love let's have twins. I have a twin sister, whose eyes reverse and she's fully sighted except she has a mild case of cerebral palsy. And you Tyler. Yep.

I have a twin brother, whose eyes reversed when he was a baby, as well.

Cool. So you went on into college?

I did. I had attended a junior college first college called Kilgore College. And I attended the Longview campus they had along the campus there where I live, and I went from 2010 to 2013. And then I attended that program for adults Chris Cole rehab center in June to December of 2013. And then soon after I attended Stephen F. Austin from January of 2014 to December of 2017. And that's where I'm at my best friend say that was in the fall of 27. The fall of 2014 Excuse me.

And we're brothers from another mother lice we are

so you see you got your degree in

criminal justice, criminal justice, my associates in general studies.

So do you do you work in criminal justice or anything like that now?

No, I doubt it just I you know, this started having changed mind and pursued you know, some jobs but just couldn't really find any. But years later, I started getting on Saylor's route. EF 2018, I started just being a co host of his once Spreaker platform that we were on. And then we changed from that to station, playlist studio. And then real variety radio became a thing and 2028 24/7 Yep. 24/7. Yep. But

do you? Do you think that blindness played a part in you not really finding a job that that satisfied you or that gave you the opportunity to really progress? Or did you just kind of want to switch?

I just kind of wanted to switch? I don't think blindness had anything to do with it. Okay, in fact, I had a VR case vocational rehab case, but I decided to, you know, pursue volunteer stuff for now. And actually, I do at my church, I actually help clean the church at my church at home. Okay, I'm fully involved in my church that I go to at my in my hometown. So

so so Saylor, how about you? Why did you guys move to Cancun? What, what took you all down there and what brought you back?

Well, because of course, since we were premature, like we eat a lot of lead a lot of therapy to do physical therapy. And just to sum up, I know this happens a lot. Unfortunately, especially with special needs any special needs parents at it's just statistics show that an 80% of parents with any special needs children. Divorce, has at least one parent can't deal with it. And which was

We lost you. For case. Hello? Yeah, you faded out there.

Yeah. So yeah, while we were in the hospital, Our father was convinced that we would not survive. And of course, if we did, we will be severely brain injured and whatnot. And, Tyler, I know your dad wasn't like that at all. No, no. Yeah. And so my, my mother and father ended up divorcing as a result. And since we did a lot of therapy, it was costing too much to do it here. Which is why we moved down there to, to do this program, because it wasn't, it was an in home program out of Philadelphia, it was a do it yourself program, you had to go to Philadelphia, and like, my mom had to learn how to do it. And she had to have volunteers to do it, to help her do it. And so that's why we moved down there. And, you know, because that area was so beautiful. She just wanted to stay. And so she started small, this astounding, small, like resort style hotel with a few houses. And we rent those out. And I wanted to come back because I want to, of course, I was going to elementary school down there and in private school in fly.com. And I wanted to be like, I wanted to be exposed to the timber world here.

Yeah. So I came back.

And like I said, I wanted to be, I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be exposed to more and more people like me here, you know?

Well, and you came back. And that's worked out pretty well. And now you guys are, are doing what you're doing. And I appreciate that it's, it's interesting listening to the two of you. Because you essentially had two different kinds of receptions by parents. And that greatly affected what you do, and, and how you are able to be raised. And from my experience, it really, especially when you're a young child is all about parents, I was very fortunate that I had two parents who decided right from the beginning that they were willing to let me explore and grow. And as I describe it, they were risk takers.

But me to my parents, they raised me, you know,

well, your mother did well, and your your mother did my mother and my grandpa and my grandparents, your grandparents, but your but your father didn't, which is, you know, part of the issue. And so it became a real challenge. And but you guys, but you persevered, which is really the issue is you, you came through it. And exactly. You're now able to, you know, to look back on it and look at all the lessons that you learned, which is really great.

Like growing up, I know what caught what really caught my attention is in one of the episodes, you mentioned, you rode a bike in your subdivision and one guy called your dad, why the heck is he riding a bike by himself blind? I've wondered, how did you ride your bike blind because I love the bike blown up too. Because but because of a vision I had, I could see the ground and like I had a little bit while I was going. And it turns out on your later episodes, you said you pay attention to the auditory cues that were around you.

So, you know, it's a fair question. And it's an interesting question. I think the best way to answer it is if, if I were to ask anyone with eyesight, you can see the ground and all that what does it look like? What does it look like to see red? And what does it look like to see blue? The problem is their senses. And you there isn't a way to describe what it's like to see. And likewise, really, it's the same with hearing. The reality is it's just another sense that we use and we actually get I believe more information from hearing them from my sight because you hear all around you up and down and everything and from an eyesight standpoint, you only see through the visual acuity and the field of view that your eyes have there. So the result is that we really hear a lot of things that we don't necessarily even realize were that we're hearing. And I don't know whether that was true for you or not. But for me, riding a bike was no big deal. I learned to listen to all that was around me. And I learned to be able to hear when I was coming close to a parked car, or I was coming past a driveway because the sound was different. It is it is possible to learn to use other senses to do the same things and eyesight can do eyesight as as I put it isn't the only game in town.

Would you go would you ride fast going on a bike? Do you guys go I would write

sometimes. Yeah, sometimes I did. I wasn't always in a real hurry. And so I was I was I know, somewhat careful. I didn't probably write as fast as other people. Might. But I did ride pretty fast. Because I could hear pretty well.

Speaking of your story, Michael, my brother taught me how to ride a bike. Uh huh. Yeah. And I eventually learned and I just rode it around my driveway just by myself. Whenever I was a kid.

Yeah, well, I rode a bike around the neighborhood. I wrote it to school, locked it in the bike rack in the morning when I went there and all that. I did that for most of three years. And then when I went into fourth grade, I was bused to a different school. And I think that's because all of the intermediate grades four through six went to tamarisk in schools across town, I don't remember whether Yeka school had grades four through six. But I was I think that that we might know my brother and I both went to Tamaris, which was the school for fourth through sixth graders. And so I didn't ride a bike there, that was all the way across town that was about, oh, three, four miles away. So that was a little bit too far to go with a bike. Wow. But still, I rode a bike for quite a while. Now I don't. And I haven't tried for a while I did ride a bike a little bit in San Francisco a few years ago. So I can still do it. But I haven't really ridden a bike for quite a while

Lee to meet you. Because, of course, I will ride I will write both here at my grandmother's ranch because of course, I also grew up here like, you know, during your seasonal, you know, during the summers and Christmases, and I was not in school. So I was right back here. My grandmother has a big circle, see the extra cars actually, I will go fast and like a bike. And of course, I also rode the bike in Mexico as well. It was a lot of fun.

The reality is ultimately, people only think it's amazing that we wrote a bike because they can't imagine doing it without eyesight, but eyesight is not the only way to accomplish tasks. And that goes back sailor to something that you said before about dealing with jobs. It isn't about being blind, it's about how people perceive being blind. That tends to be the real difficulty.

Absolutely.

You know, blind people can clean, they can clean houses, they can clean churches are clean, I clean my church, help clean.

You know, well, blind people are in most jobs in one way or another. There have been a couple of blind people who served in Congress and one well, and in the house and one in the Senate. That's been a long time. And now I think in a sense, we've regressed because why people aren't being elected. And I and I know that some people have tried to get into politics, and have maybe to some degree, but still, the attitudes are so pervasive about what you can't do with eyesight as opposed to what you can't do without eyesight, as opposed to what you can do without eyesight. And that tends to be the real issue. But I grew up with parents who believed that I could accomplish whatever I chose to when they brought me up with that attitude. I'm very grateful for it.

Yeah. Now I want to start asking you some questions here. Speaking of that, so yeah, but all about your childhood. We talked about that. I mean, you will. I know you were born in Chicago, you moved to California when you were five. Kind of similar like my story that I moved, but Could you think of anything different your parents could have done to help you more during that time anything, any, just anything overall like to help you achieve more?

You know, I think it was sort of a natural progression in in Palmdale, there was no cane travel, no cane training. But I did find traveling around the schools and my neighborhood, through elementary school, even without cane training. And of course, the issue with using a cane or a dog is that those devices or those creatures help keep you safe. But they don't take the place of you needing to know. And as a result, knowing where to go and what to do, it's my job to know where to go and what to do, and how to get there. And then in the case of using a dog, I have to give the dog directions and tell the dog when to turn left, turn right, that is my job. With a cane, you have to know when to turn left and when to turn right. And I use a cane sometimes. But we didn't have that

now, we walk that we walk pain.

Now there are a number of different kinds of technologies that are out there. But the bottom line is, it still doesn't change the fact that you need to be the one to know where to go and how to get there, you have to be aware of your surroundings. Yeah. And you have to make decisions no matter how it's done. And then you have to follow through. And if you get lost, and you got to figure out how you got lost in a wire and where you got lost and fix it. But that is what I did by all by listening up through the eighth grade. Then when I went into high school, we decided that the campus was bigger. And so that's when I was fortunate enough to be able to get a guide dog. So Should my parents have done anything different in terms of teaching me or allowing me to deal with mobility? Oh, possibly. And if they had sent me to a school for the blind, maybe I would have learned some other things. But they wanted me to be mainstreamed. And so I don't think that there were a lot of things that through the whole process, they could have done much differently. That wouldn't have detracted from the things that I did learn. So I think it all worked out. Well.

Yeah, go as far as for me, I'll share. I know my my mom in particular, she did the best. I don't know, if you read my bio, because of a vision I had. She wanted me to use the eyes to my eyes to a max. And and that result like she we didn't I know, you also mentioned that you really emphasize the importance of learning braille. And you you kind of disturbed that a lot of schools don't teach it whenever they should. I will admit I didn't learn well growing up. As much as I should have enlarged really, like I said, My mom wants me to use that my eyes the best, the best I could, because I could I can reprint if it is large enough. But again, it's not efficient. And I know you said this in previous episodes swell. And there's just too much strain that that bleeds on. If you give someone print, their eyes get too tired too fast. And that was my case. Because we even myself, I had a lot of hopes that there would be new developments for eye surgeries to what I could eventually be able to see better, which is why we kept seeing my doctor in Detroit growing upstate to stay up to date, which unfortunately they will not watch again I'm finding the way I am. And so, I mean just to sum up if if I will change anything going back I will I will have learned more dwell younger than I did, but it is where it is i I know well now. I can I can read I don't read that fast but I do. I do league overall which is great. And I'll admit it 100% I hated to use a cane. You No, no, no, no, no. I, when someone, my mom, and my teachers, they give me a cane I was I'd say, No, I want to use it. It looks ugly, it looks terrible. Because, you know, I want to be like everybody else. Makes sense. But, you know, especially when I came back, you know, to school here and went to school full of wine. Well, we're lonely is the K more? I just adapted and now I'm happy now. I'm good. The cane is my my best one of my best friends. Yeah, that's, that's mine. That's mine.

It goes back to what we've talked about, which is that people think that eyesight really is the only game in town, and they don't believe deep down in their hearts, that it's okay to be blind. Yeah. And that's what it really comes down to now. Would would we all rather have eyesight? If the opportunity were there? Sure, I think, because it gives me more information. But I don't happen to be seeing today. And I can do fine with that. Yeah. And I think that we have to recognize that there's nothing wrong with the concept of being blind and being able to survive in the world.

Exactly. Because I'll be honest, I mean, whenever I was in the hospital, as a baby, one of the doctors here in Houston, tried to convince her that it would be cool if she put me through eye surgery, because it would not do any good at the if anything, I would only be able to see light, and just someone's finger. And that's it. And so he tried to convince her to not put me for the surgery. And of course that really, that really made her break down. And which is why she key accepted. No. for that answer. She knew there was another possibility out there. Which is why I was July flagging me to this similar doctor in Detroit, where I stayed there for a month to have these surgeries. And I'm sure that was the same with you, Tyler, right.

I don't know if it was a month it might have been.

Yeah, remember, but that did your mom take know that you will be totally blind? Did she?

Yeah, she accepted it. Eventually. She wanted to do the surgery to try and help me see, but it didn't work. It gave me light light perception. Yeah, yeah. In both eyes.

And so I mean, my parents, in a sense, they tried to avoid us being blind, as much as possible. And I mean, I get it, I get why I mean, you want to, it'd be nice for us to see things and I am thankful for a vision that I have. But if there was a new procedure today, that would give me better vision. Would I take it? Probably not. Would you take the time?

I don't think I would know. Because I would have to relearn everything.

Yes, me too. And so yeah, that's that. And so Tyler. Now question you, your G changed anything. Would you want? Do you think your mom could have done anything different raising you? And

I don't know. She kind of taught me a little bit of cooking a little bit. She kind of you know, like, then some a little bit of the skillet. And openers, you know, stuff like that a little bit. Yeah. So she she did a pretty good job of helping me. She helped me by enrolling me in the School for the Blind and Lions Camp in Kerrville, Texas. That I went to his kid you know?

Because if anything she fought for you. I'll see what resource classes right.

At a time I kind of was for a time. Yeah, we change that. But, but yeah, she did a pretty good job of helping me. Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's, and that's cool. You know, you're, they, your parents accepted you and and it sounds like they probably accepted you a little bit more. or as who you were, then then did Saylors mother and certainly her father, his father, but more than than her mother, because she really wanted Saylor to be able to see.

Right? Well, suddenly, yeah, my mom. She not only accepted me being blonde, she said, No, he's going to have the same opportunities as everyone else.

Because, yeah, grandma would say, use your eyes. Right.

Well, and the reality is that, as you said Saylor using your eyes too much causes strain headaches and other things. Because the reality is that the tools weren't in there to be able to do that. But you have gone on. And you've now started real variety radio. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, so yeah, as a 24/7 radio station. We're really having trouble getting listeners, right. But yeah, we are. But our podcast is great. Our podcast is great. But the good news is, as I had speakers Playhouse live in Dallas, I met a media specialist who worked at as a talk radio host in Denver for a long time. And now she does press releases, so hopefully she's going to help us gain more traction.

Well, let's, let's go back just a little bit. So Saylor and I met through the National Federation of the Blind, we're both in it. But also last year, and people on unstoppable mindset have heard me talk about PATA Palooza before, which is a program for podcasters would be podcasters. And people who just got to who just want to be interviewed by podcasters. But it's a program to bring people together. It's held four times a year. There's one coming up in April. And we introduced Sandler to it because he had indicated he was starting this podcast so Saylor has really gone deeply into it. I don't know Tyler if did you go with Saylor to the ensemble or to the potter Palooza event?

On zoom? Yeah, yeah. I went there in October, and actually came to see him in October. But the one in January I didn't because he was in Cancun. Yeah. With his mom.

Yeah. But, but Saylor went to this. There was also a live event. Just recently that Saylor went to you didn't go to that one. Yeah, I went to that. Oh, you went to that one too. Okay. So anyway, Pata Palooza is all about helping to promote and teach people about podcasting. So that's what Saylor's referring to here. And he has been been working on that. But tell us about what what you do on real variety radio.

Well, it we play music 24/7. And every five hours is a different genre Music, Pop, country, Hip Hop, Rock, even some special programming such as a, there's a show of the Texas red Delta blowdown, which plays the best in often at Texas countries. Every Saturday, and we do a show once a week, a live show. And one that we haven't been doing it as much lately, because we've been really focusing on this venture. You're trying to, you know, get our ducks in a row to really extend this platform. But I'm also implementing voice tracking, as well. We're doing the automation. You'll hear me on radio, you're gonna think I'm actually live, but indeed it is in full automation.

What tools do you use to do that? How do you how do you put all that together?

I use the station playlist suite, which includes studio, which is that music player and the US creator, which is a scheduler, it schedules on playlists. And will note voice tracker, which allows me to record voice tracks from anywhere. And I have a desktop computer at home that's always on 24/7 Once it's all programmed the way I want it, boom, I don't have to touch it. It just runs an automation.

Then you just put new programming in from time to time and so on.

Oh yeah. Exactly.

So You have been doing that. And hopefully, through these podcasts and so on, we'll get you some more listeners as well. Please share it widely and

we can actually, we could actually promote already a session on our podcast to potentially, yeah,

you're listening to that that's on the internet. So your greatest programming music,

real variety radio.com

Just gonna listen at real variety. radio.com

There you go. So go ahead.

We have a clubhouse from as well to say let's shut up. Okay. Yep.

What? What got you and then starting a podcast?

Oh, we were told that it's the most popular medium to reach an audience. And, of course, we want to inspire others, right?

Yes, we do. And we're also writing a book together.

Yes, we are. Yes, well,

tell us. So. So tell us a little bit more about the podcasts hope with Hope Without Sight, right?

Yes, we we've had, edit just features people who've overcome challenges in life, whether it be from a disability, an illness, a financial hardship, learning experience, just anything. And the purpose of it is to inspire others that you can to live out your dream.

And not only that, hope it outside is a metaphor. It isn't just Oh, hope without vision, like physical vision. Like he just said, it's all about stories of so many different people. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be bad. It could be like, as simple as hey, completing college and how hard that might have been. It could have been, you know, so many other things. But it is also disabilities, blindness. It's everything that people have ever come like diverse situations.

Who are some of the people you've interviewed?

Oh, leave a review. We interviewed a golfer with no arms. And no one a golfer with no hands actually, who is in the PGA World Champion for golfers with disabilities, and has won numerous golf games whenever you can post them with a man with autism, ADHD. And get this he didn't know he was he was on the spectrum into our two or three sons were diagnosed. With that, we've interviewed someone with who's dyslexic. And she never knew at all her life. And she's using her gifts to buy building a retreat center in Puerto Vallarta, and I got to go there this past November to record lots of podcasts we've had great, great guests so far.

And we're actually going to interview someone from Canada. Is that right? from Alberta? Yeah. And around newness.

And also, we got great guests, including you, Michael.

Exactly. And we also interviewed someone who has issues with speech like he stutters, but he overcame it. Yeah. Yeah. So we've interviewed a diverse bunch of people from all walks of life.

That's, that's cool. It is. And the podcast is a weekly event.

Yeah, weekly. Yeah. We've got we've kind of, uh, we've kind of slowed down a little bit. And we didn't release an episode last last week, because honestly, I haven't recorded a whole lot this year. To the most part, I've recorded at least seven of them while on this trip and poorly altered, that we're gonna really pick up speed over the next few weeks. So it's gonna be great.

Pretty exciting to see all of that happening. Do you? In addition to putting out your episodes wherever you put them out, do you also put them on Real Variety Radio?

Yeah, they're on the website. Yes. And but are they part

of part as a part of your regular broadcast schedule as well?

They're not yet but I thought about actually making including it in the schedule can be a good idea. Yeah, it would be Yeah. It

would also be good. It would also be good to have a Contact Us About Us page. Yeah,

we have all that good stuff. Yeah.

So what's next for you guys?

Um, well, just gonna, we're just gonna keep we're just gonna keep chasing our dream. I mean, like I said, I honestly, in this entrepreneurship journey starting out, I've been very excited. But at the same time, I've been confused, and overwhelmed. Because all this is brand new to me. Nevertheless, I've never ran a business, you know, on my own before. So that means I need to figure out how to like, you know, do business taxes to county, you name it. And so what that means sad, you know, it's, I feel like I'm on. I'm on a roller coaster, trying to figure out all all, all how all these pieces fit together, then incorporate but the good news is, you know, I have a great team, we have a great team, we should say, that's behind us helping us. I helped to of course. Do affiliates. Meaning anybody who's been on my podcast before, I'll ask you now know, if you have any affiliate programs, I could help you promote? Maybe I could get a commission with that. And then I'm going to inquire about this with my previous guests as well. We have to offer offer membership sites. Membership packages, such as content not included in the show, where people pay even premium media packages, such as coaching services, and of course, sponsorships and advertisements on our radio station. And I'm even going to get into eight speaking gigs hopefully, begin getting paid speaking, swell.

Oh, a lot of adventures and a lot of a lot of stuff coming up. And I hope it all goes well for you guys. And that'd be a great adventure

is, well, I'm now if you don't mind, I want to turn to you. Your story. Okay. So, we all we obviously we all know about, you know, that hula hula day, on September 11 2001, you coming down from the World Trade Center after the plane hit because of your calmness in your just resilience. You not only have helped yourself get out, you help your colleagues, David. And since then, you've just inspired the world. The first question I want to ask is, what impact has your story made on others?

Well, I I can only tell you what they say. It, it's, it's a fascinating thing to hear people say, Gee, I am so much more familiar with being blind. Now I know a lot more than I ever did before. Because I've read your book, Thunder dog, which is available wherever books are sold. I heard your story. But you know, the other part about it very honestly, is that hearing it and absorbing it and truly understanding it and letting it become part of your life is is a whole different animal. For example, I went to a book club, where they asked me to come and speak. And they said everyone will have read your book. And they will have read about your story, but they would like to meet you and would you come and I said sure. So I went and I talked to this club a little bit and then we opened it for questions. And again, remember all of them were supposed to have actually read the book and the story, obviously. And the first question that somebody said was, well, what were you doing in the World Trade Center in the first place? It's it is so ingrained in us that you can't do things if you can't see that we really find it hard to accept that that's possible. On the other hand on many other occasions, I think we have had a positive impact. I've talked to any number of People since September 11, who were in the stairwell with me who I didn't know, who followed me down the stairs. And they said, because you were calm, we followed you. And I have had any number of people who have heard me speak since then, because I've been traveling and speaking since October of 2001. And continue to do that today. But people who have said, we saw what you did. And if you could do that, then we want to know how to do that, too. And we followed you down the stairs. And clearly you were very calm, and you kept us focused going down the stairs. And the reason was, is because I was constantly saying to Rosa, what a good dog, good girl, keep going, what a good job you're doing. And it was important for me to do that. Because I didn't want the dog to know, or to think I was nervous. Because if I conveyed that, then the dog would be looking at me rather than focusing on her job. The other side of it is that that helped me Of course, because I did stay calm. But I also learned a lot of information about the World Trade Center, that gave me a mindset that if something happened, you know what to do in an emergency, if there's time to do it, and if there's not time to do it, it doesn't matter anyway. Right. But if, if, if there's time, then you know, you know what to do. And so all of those were things that that came together on September 11. I just got an email yesterday from someone who sponsored me to come and speak at a couple of organizations, dealing with books and distributors who sold the underdog among other things. This person's met me in 2013. So here it is 10 years later. And the fact is that I was I thought about him over the years, but but he wrote yesterday, and said that he had heard about the fact that my wife passed last November, and that he wanted to reach out. But also, he remembers very finely the things that we did, and all the events that happened on the day that we met. So I hope I'm having a positive effect on people. I hope I'm having a positive effect on people and the people will truly learn from it. And, and will grow. And we'll get to the point of recognizing that there are many ways to do the same thing. And we should limit ourselves or other people that we need to allow people to truly stretch and grow.

Yeah, wow. That's amazing. Wow. And that's amazing. Because I have a feeling. You know, I'm that's one of the last questions or asking a little bit, but just the legacy that you're gonna leave. I mean, there's no doubt that impact that you've made. It's inspiring other youngsters, specially blind people who are going to no doubt make the same impact as you are. And who knows, that could be us.

Yeah. Well, I would just premise by saying, hey, it isn't just blind people you're in everyone are impacted, because in the end, I truly believe that most people in America do not care if you're blind or not. They care about your heart. I think they do. I think a lot of employers Yeah. But I think that's even getting better, believe it or not?

Well, I think it's slowly getting better. I think that that people you say don't care. I think, though that people have their defenses come up, because although they don't care, they don't know. And that lack of education says that. Oh my gosh, you can't do this because you can't see. And it isn't. It isn't a hatred thing. Now, as I've said to people, when we deal when we talk about race and so on, you know, there's clearly a lot of hatred there. And in one sense, it's strange to say, but I don't think we've progressed to the point where we're hated because we're just playing discounted. We're discounting discounted, and as a result,

we haven't been able to break through some of that and more people need to carry on the conversation, diversity, equity and inclusion is a lovely set of concepts. But it typically leaves out disabilities. And the reality is that all the people who are thought leaders in that arena, need to include disabilities. disability does not mean a lack of ability. In fact, as I point out, as I point out people, no matter who you are have a disability, grandma has a disability. The one disability that she has, that every other sighted person is, is their light dependent, and they can't function. They can't function without light, you got to turn the light on, Thomas Edison invented a nice little simple device called the light bulb, although some people say other people invented it, but whoever invented the light bulb, which means that you have light all around you, but make no mistake, the disability is still there, it's just covered up. And it's something that we really need to deal with. And we need to get people to recognize that all of us have different sets of abilities, and it doesn't mean that any of us are less than anyone else.

Yeah, because those who have a disability, let's say there's more such as PTSD, let me mean, you have a mental illness, obviously, that employers are not going to recognize right away, because it's not obvious you can't see it. But if someone's in a wheelchair, someone's blind, they're gonna get turned off at that, by that that needs to change.

It doesn't need to change. Again, though, light dependence is a disability. And the perception of it needs to change. It's very difficult to do it because we have light all around us. But make no mistake, that that is still an issue that's there. And it should be one of the concepts that helps create an equalizer to say, Okay, well, all right, I recognize that I got laid all the time and all that. And there are people who don't need to rely on light. But it doesn't mean that they're less than me. And we haven't made that leap yet. Yeah, hopefully, we will. We will at some point. Oh, yeah. All right.

Well, I know you may, you may, you might answer this question. Just in case, what made you take the offer to work at the World Trade Center? And did you miss working there after the attacks? Would you go back to work? In another office at that same company, if you could?

Well, two different questions. First of all, what I go back and work in the World Trade Center in New York, and so on. Well, they've rebuilt it. But if if the opportunity came, and it seemed like the right thing to do, very possibly, but I'm happy with the work that I'm doing now speaking, and also working for excessive, be excessive, he does have a New York office.

And I think that the work that I do, however, is different than what happens in the New York office and what happens in Israel to a degree. But, you know, I will go where it makes most sense to go. Right now I live in a house that my wife and I built for our specifications and to our specifications. So it's wheelchair accessible, although she is not here anymore, but it's a great house. And it's a very comfortable environment. So I think maybe the better question is, would I be afraid to go back? No, I wouldn't be afraid to go back if that seemed like the thing to do. But I do like being out in California. I grew up here from the age of five, and I enjoy it. And so I think that there are so many different kinds of factors that that go into things. But I do love to travel and speak and, and go to wherever people want me to come in. Not only tell the story, but talk about teamwork and trust and other things like that. So I think that if the opportunity comes to travel and speak, I'll do that all day long.

Yeah, everything happens for a reason. It does, you just make the best of every situation.

That is that is really what it's all about. And we we need to recognize that we need to grow and we need to continue to progress and and move forward in all that we do. You know, I work for this company accessibility that makes products that help make websites more accessible and some people say that the artificial intelligent products that exists to be makes it do more harm than good? No, they don't. All the artificial intelligent products do is, in a general way codify what already exists, that individual programmers can do. And all they do is put to use all the rules for this, the World Wide Web Consortium created about access. But there's, you know, we're not going to spend a lot of time debating that today or talking about that today. But, but the bottom line is that the very fact that there are over 170,000 customers using it today says something. And you can argue that all day long, but it's kind of hard to argue with success. And there are so many stories of what it does. But the reality is, all too often, we don't like to deal with things that are different than our comfort zone. But in our world today, our comfort zones are being challenged all the time. And we need to get used to that.

Right. I mean, I hope like you starting a podcast, we're all websites. Hopefully, they should be accessible by 2025. And I hope that happens.

Yeah, I do, too. I know excessively is saying that's a real reach. And they're not saying it that way anymore. Because it is a tough thing. It's a great goal. And it should happen. And it will happen if enough people really push for it and push for the laws and the enforcement of the laws to be strengthened.

Exactly. And I did that in a resolution. I wrote last year to the NFP because he argued that because a lot of these people they argue, oh, the ADA was invented before the internet. I mean, there's no excuse for that. Today, it doesn't matter. Doesn't know, it doesn't matter. No, you guys today. And I don't even know if the

ADA includes internet, as it says that, that it has to be accessible.

It doesn't matter. The ADEA is a general law, you know?

Oh, eight? Well,

the the Department of Justice has said that the internet is that the internet is a place of business and is under the title to at least have and other sections as well, but of the ADEA. So the reality is that it is a place of requiring reasonable accommodation. That's right, guys. And then the reality is it is so simple for everyone to make the internet website world accessible.

Same with PDFs, they need to work on that to

certain ones. Well, they do.

Well, next question, during your most trying times about your professional career, what inspired you to keep going whenever it was whatever it felt like it was impossible, and you just wanted to throw in the towel and give up.

I never wanted to throw in the towel and give up I had times that I was afraid I wasn't being as successful as I wanted. But I do have a faith and I and I talk with God all the time and listen or read and learn from that. But I also think that the fact is that everything happens if you look back on your life in a progression, so even the times that were a challenge taught me a lot. They taught me about me. And I learned what I could have done differently earlier or now what I need to do going forward. So I'm a firm believer in introspection and people at the end of everyday looking at what they did what they do and looking at how this could have gone better or how even though this was great, what else could I have done to even improve it? Or this didn't go? Well? How come? Because if we don't analyze, we won't grow and we won't learn no one can teach us. All they can do is show us what we need to teach ourselves. And the fact is that we need to become better teachers of ourselves.

Exactly. And you just make the best of every situation regardless of what life may throw at you. Like I like like I said the journey I'm on now it's still kind of unknown, but I know one day, every ever I'm going to see success as long as I work hard.

And and know this part of success is failure. There's nothing wrong with it, because it's a learning tool.

Failure is only not having had the success that you want in a particular endeavor and you need to find Find out why and then fix it.

Exactly. Well, you know, failure. Just because you fail once at a task doesn't mean you won't eventually succeed, you will succeed eventually.

Well, I think we can look at failure a couple of different ways. Either we can look at it as a horrible thing, or as you said, we can look at it as a learning experience. So failure doesn't need to be a bad thing. It offers us the opportunity to learn. Exactly

right. And next, who are you? Who would you consider your heroes that inspired you to do the work that you've done?

One person, certainly for me is Jacobus tenBroek, the founder of the National Federation of the Blind, he set the basic philosophy and I enjoy reading what he has written. And in fact, the fourth episode of unstoppable mindset is a recording of a speech he gave in 1956 entitled within the grace of God, it's one of my favorite speeches, but he is definitely one. Yeah, Ken Jernigan and Federation was one colleagues and people who I worked with Mark Mauer is is a great friend, although I haven't talked to Mark for a couple of years and probably need to reach out but you know, there are so many people my parents, of course, were staunch advocates of what I could do. And I had so many people that I knew along the way I'm still friends with Dick herbal Shimer, who is my sophomore geometry teacher. And he is now going to be at six in August. And so we just we keep in touch.

Good school. My heroes would be course, not parents. Of course, all the diverse people I've had on my podcast so far. They're my heroes, too. Because even though we may not have the same situation, I've been inspired me as well. And, of course, every my heroes too. Oh,

well, thank you. I have learned from every person I've had on my podcast, if I'm not learning at least as much as everyone else, I'm not doing my job, right. I believe every podcast is an opportunity to learn

entirely. Yeah,

I would say, one of my heroes, I know it has nothing to do with blindness. But one of my heroes is Ronald Reagan. Because of how he spoke about the country, how he said, Hey, you know, freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Yep. And if we lose freedom here, there's nowhere to go. You know, and I, you know, I'm a very patriotic person. You know, I believe that, you know, here, this is where everything happens. opportunities happen is here.

I had the the honor of meeting Tip O'Neill while he was Speaker of the House, and that was was fun. I have not only fun it was it was awe inspiring. He was he was a great man. Sorry, he was Yeah, during the Reagan era, and he was 79 to 89 was Tip O'Neill's tenure as Speaker of the House.

You know, they didn't always see eye to eye and that's okay. They did work together on certain certain things to know well,

but but but take it a little bit different way. They didn't need to see eye to eye the point is that they did work things out. Right. Yeah, that's the difference between then and now, right now is there's no room for discussion. And I think that one side of that is more guilty than the other, although some people would try to say that's not true. But the reality is, and I'm not going to go to as to which it is, but the fact of the matter is that we have lost the art of conversation. And collectively as a society, we rely way too much on social media, and what someone says rather than looking at things for ourselves,

exactly, for sure, you know,

obvious censorship on social media, even cable TV, no good. No good, man. Good.

And don't get bad. Let me tell you, you know, blind people, in some ways have been censored because of their condition. In some ways, the words employers not wanting to be a lot of employers not wanting to hire because they feel they might be a liability, blind people, maybe a liability or something. What if something happened? What if this this but at the same time, it's like, wait, you get over you got to get over those fears and just take a take a risk and say, hey,

well, it's not even taking a risk, because liability isn't a factor that enters into it when it comes to blindness and that's been proven so many times,

right, of course, but they have that Miss conception about, oh, they may be allowed. Oh, yeah, no, they have

that mindset. Yes. Right, of course.

Um, So yeah, last couple of questions because I know I'm you're limited on time. And we are to we have another interview in 30 minutes. But um, of course, you can ask me anything else to be anything, but um, what are your future goals? If you have any? And it's been clear, you know, you've made a great impact on the world, you're getting back to society? What is the legacy you want to leave for others? And how do you want to be remembered?

Well, first of all, for as far as future goals, we're working on a new book called A Guide Dogs Guide to Being brave. And it's all about learning about fear, and how to control it. And we're using my guide dogs as examples of that. And so it's, it's coming along, we have a publisher, and we're getting good, valuable input from the editors on that, I also am going to continue to do unstoppable mindset. And I'll I can to support and enhance access to be I think also traveling and speaking, I want to continue to do and will COVID. Stop that for a while. But now we're working on trying to reach out and find events where people want to speak or to come and talk and talk about teamwork and trust. And one of my favorite speech topics is moving from diversity to inclusion, long story, but also just really telling people that we're all part of the same world and teaching people that we need to get along and helping people learn how to get along. So I want to continue to do all of those things. And, of course, now it's it's just me and not me and my wife. And I suppose in one sense, that means I have more time to do some of that than I did before. And more time to think which is also good. I like quiet time I like to be able to stop and think and think we all ought to do that. And that'll be something we talked about in the book. As far as a legacy, you know, I I want and hope that people will feel that I have done good, and that I've been a contributor and and help make the world a little better. And in all that I've done, I hope that people recognize that and will recognize that there are good things and I made good choices.

You have Michael, you're an inspiration to sell many. You're not just an inspiration. You're famous, because I hear you on speech after speech after speech. People clap, people clapping, MCs introducing for everybody. Please welcome Michael Kingston. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. Well, thank you. And, well, as far as the last one, we're just getting started, man. I mean, you're, you're a veteran. You've you had your career, even though it's not official yet. We're just getting started. My entrepreneurship journey officially began last year. And I just look forward to so many great adventures, and milestones. While being on this journey, and a legacy I want to leave, it's just, I want to make an impact and go away to a world that despite your circumstances, you can be successful if you showed if you so choose,

I don't know that I will ever retire. First of all, can't afford to yet. But second of all, I like being active. I like having an active mind. So as long as I can do all this, I'm gonna Oh, yeah,

you go right.

In same with me with my legacy. I just want to leave behind just the fact that it didn't matter if I was blind or not. It wasn't about necessarily my blindness that had an impact. It was just about the heart. You know, the fact that, you know, I see people as people not as blind not as this not as that. It's where people. That's it. Yeah, it doesn't matter what color you are, it doesn't matter where you've come from. Doesn't matter what disability you have. A person is a person. And, you know, I'm a pro life person. There you go. That's what I believe.

I, you know, I think we're all pro life. I think we've, we've warped some of that in ways that we shouldn't have. But we are all part of the same world. And we need to recognize that and accept it. Yep. Wow. Well, this has been great. And again, And how can people reach out to you guys if they would like to do that?

Yeah, also please put them up as podcast, you can send me an email to say hello at real variety radio.com sailor is spelled s a Yo, at our E A L varheyradio.com.

What's it to one?

Yeah, var i ety.com. Yeah.

And you can go the website, we override the radio.com and find this there as well. Also, Michael and I, in my email signatures, my business card containing all of my websites, social,

we will put it up.

All right, sounds good. Well, thank you. Well, go ahead.

Unless you have anything else.

Well, I will also just, I will also just say that, if people will, I hope that you'll come back and listen to more episodes of unstoppable mindset. You can find us wherever podcasts are, are available. And we ask that when you listen that you give us a five star rating, we really appreciate it. If people want to reach out to me they can do so by emailing me at Michael mi ch AE L H AI at accessible ACCE SSI B e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And you can find us there and find all of our episodes. And again Saylor and Tyler, I want to thank you both for being on unstoppable mindset with us today. And thank you for having me on real variety radio and hope without

sight. Yes, thank you ppreciate that podcast diamond said collaborative podcast and give us in please do the same thing for help about site. You can get us wherever you get podcasts and leave us a five star rating.

Well, thank you guys both again. We appreciate you being on.