What it Means to be Likeable with Human Behavioral Investigator and Speaker, Arel Moodie

Welcome to diner talks with James. slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends we never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be eating

my friends what is going on? Welcome to another episode of diner talks with James. I'm James and a pumped to be here with you all back in a diner y'all did you notice we changed the ending up a little bit on this thing. How many of y'all listen all the way to the end and have noticed that the end sounds a little bit different. I'm telling you what y'all we are keeping you on your toes around here, friends, keeping you on your toes. Speaking to keep it on your toes. I'm really excited to bring out my man. This is a guy where we have been running in circles together. But we have only met very briefly one time in person so briefly that he doesn't remember and I do and I remember it incorrectly. So how meaningful was it? I don't know. But we have been running in the same circle for a long time. He is a fellow speaker and just a damn delight. He is someone who I've learned a lot from and he doesn't even know that so, but I'm really excited to bring him out here in just a minute. Let me tell you about a real moody. He is known as a human behavioral investigator. I don't know what that sounds like. But it sounds like a pickup line over to us in college. But anyway, we'll learn about it. He has extensively studied the intricacies of human dynamics and relationships. He's a best selling author who is spoke to over 750,000 people, he counts every single person every time he meets them. Throughout 48 states and five countries he has been invited to speak at the White House casual. He's been there twice casual. He's also done three TEDx talks, he's been featured in a whole bunch of publications that you have heard of New York Times Forbes essence of Bo, he's out here. He also contributes to a show called The doctors and for fun. Earl likes to dance. He's performed at MSG, the Madison Square Garden easily the best place to perform on Earth. But I'm a biased New Yorker. So there's that even at a viral video featured on The Ellen Show. I'm super excited for you to hang out with me and my boy, a rail booty. So let's bring him out right now sliding into the diner booth, a rail. What do you say my guy?

James, I'm so excited to be here. And I usually am in a position to give introductions to people and never receive introduction. So to receive such an introduction. I will honor this moment forever.

Thank you, Brother sit in it bathe in it. I'm super pumped to be hanging out with you, brother. You are a fellow New Yorker. And that makes me happy. I don't you still you still claimed New York. I know you live in upstate New York. Are you a proud New Yorker through and through? Do you know? So I grew up in Brooklyn.

Right? So it's actually it's a question that is very fascinating. I went to upstate New York to a place called Binghamton University. That's where I went to college, and then kind of stayed in upstate New York and kind of fell in love with the place. So the question that I think is the question that you should always ask yourself is if you're not in your home state, right, so like, if you were in Colorado, for example, and someone said, Hey, James, where are you from? How do you answer that? That determines where your allegiance is? Right? Because you got Oh, I'm from New York. Okay, great. Where? And then you go, Oh, that's a good question. How do I answer upstate New York? Or do I say Brooklyn, but I've decided recently to fully embrace my upstate New York roots, because I've been in upstate longer than I was in New York City. So I think because of that I so I answer now, I live in the Syracuse area. But I was born in Brooklyn. Yes. I can't I can't let go

to Brooklyn. No, you definitely cannot. And I mean, after spending time with you, it's clear that you haven't left let go the Brooklyn in many ways, which is beautiful, which is beautiful. So it's a good ad offers a good explanation up top as well. That's right. I love it. Now. It's funny, you know, be it from you know, being from Brooklyn originally. I mean, I grew up on Long Island and then lived a bunch of years in the city and in Brooklyn myself for a while in Harlem and, and whatnot. It's funny, because now that you live in upstate New York, and you're building pride for it, when you live in the southern part of New York State, upstate New York is like just past the Bronx, right? And like, and then all the way up. There's like 10 hours of state left, all the way up to Montreal, basically. Now, I mean, so it's very interesting, the way that that ego of New York definitely takes over even with our fellow New Yorkers, but you don't really We live in New York. Where are you from

Rochester is super, super fascinating because if you actually speak to almost anyone outside of New York City, you don't really know anything like I, there's still places in New York that I find out about that I had no idea existed. And I've been in this one state, like my whole life. So it's one of those places where I'm outside of New York City. I don't know about it. But that's actually the funny part about it is that's actually why I fell in love with upstate New York. And a lot of people don't know, because I get this question a lot like, oh, well, you could live anywhere, right? Like, why do you live? Here is a question I would get in some shape or fashion, right. And the reason why I love it so much, is because when the area in which I live, there's no, there's no pretentious people. So let me explain this, right. I've traveled all over the country, and I love all parts of this country. And whenever I decided, like, where am I going to put my roots? Where am I going to like lay it down? It was important to me to be in a place where like, I didn't feel like everything was a pissing contest. You know, like when I'm in certain. Again, it's not like a whole city is like this. That'd be horrible to say about a city, but there's so many areas, where it's kind of a lot of like, well, what do you do? And you can tell I'm trying to gauge how, how do you socially economically match up to me, and then I will gauge if you are worth my time and effort, if you do it. Up here, I feel like every, like, no one cares. Like my neighbors, like there's a bunch of them who don't even know what I do for a living, you know, like, so, I'd love that, like, just human down to earth. And you know, I think when you move around to different places you can feel when people are just like this, like, good human. And I think I have adopted a philosophy that says I like to visit the party, I just don't like to throw it. So I like to be able to go. I like to hang out. And then I'm like, come back and read. It's like no one cares who I am.

Yeah. I respect the way you put that I respect the way you put that. I lived in upstate New Yorkers, for for a while as well and Ithaca. And the whole time that I lived in Ithaca, I refused to change my Facebook address to Ethica. I kept it as Manhattan was where I had moved up there from and I was like, I just I just I can't I can't change. I wasn't ready to claim and it takes a beat to really kind of allow yourself to let go and see the beauty of it. But you're right. Upstate New York is filled with so many hidden gems. I mean, if it was a town, the Finger Lakes, you know, most people know New York City, and then they're like, oh, it isn't Niagara Falls there too. And that's about all they know. But like the Adirondacks are stunning. And the southern tier is beautiful, Letchworth State Park, and really, there's a whole bunch of upstate New York that is really beautiful. And it's wildly underrated.

Yeah, it is. It is it is absolutely a gem. And it's actually interesting. You said that thing about the Facebook thing, because the one thing that I think I cannot let go of is I still have a 347 area code on my phone. And there's a part of me that I don't know if I'll ever let that one go. Yeah. I get what you're saying about that? Yep.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm in Minnesota. Now I'm holding on to my 646. So I get it, I get it. Now.

For anyone who's like, what's the six?

Now, here's the beautiful thing about the fact that we're both New Yorkers, and this doesn't happen all the time with my guests. But you know, your way around a diner. And you have been you have been to many a diner in your life. And I mean, just not just because you travel around the country, but you know, because you're a New Yorker ova don't know much about. And so so I'm wondering, do you have a favorite late night? Go to either when you were younger? Or maybe it's still currently? Do you have a favorite late night move that you love to eat?

Yeah, so I'm actually it's a really bad habit. But you know, the food you shouldn't eat is always the food that you want to eat, you know? Yep. And I'm always curious on how people do French fries. It's one of my biggest interest because I think there's 1000 ways to do French fries right and 1000 ways to do it wrong. And you know, I always want to know the thickness of the fry versus the crispness of the fry versus the is it kind of like potato Lee on the inside when you bite it or is it crispy all the way through. So I'm a big fan of a big old plate of fries, and then catch up I like to put salt directly onto the ketchup even though I'm aware fries have salt on them. And I like a salty ketchup. And I like to dip them in and I can eat a mountain of fries in every single forum. So I'm a huge fan apparently of the potato and I didn't realize I love the potatoes so much until this

we only we only dig out the good stuff here. So here's here's this is actually a valuable conversation to have, I believe maybe one of the most valuable we've ever had in the diner. And so their eyes you mentioned there are different french fry types if you're going to rank the types of French fries no toppings just the individual french fries right we got one offer fries, shoestring fries, steak fries, we got you know, thing cut we got what Eric all all sorts of curly fries. What's what's your what's your ranking what's the best french fry in your opinion, and least favorite,

I have the most success in the waffle fry. Like if you want to, if you see a waffle fry, you're almost guaranteed you're gonna get a very crispy fried, which is what I want, I actually tell people to bake it a little bit longer or fried a little bit longer than they normally would because I do not like a soft middle I don't like a potato, we saw a steak fry lets me down the most. So I'm gonna say if you want to go, if you see the waffle fry, go for it. If you see the steak fry, it's, it's you're gonna get let down more times and you're gonna be happy about it.

I don't know if I could like you more than I do right now. I couldn't agree more, you'll notice that the title of this podcast is diner talks, not Red Robin talks, because I don't like they give bottomless steak fries at Red Robin. And I'm like, I don't need more than a couple of these mediocre french fries. This is why they probably went with the steak fries, because they know they're not going to keep churning them through. But if this manager was bottomless waffle fries, much more been like people would be lining up around a Red Robin.

And it would be out of business by Tuesday because I'd be like Yeah, yeah, bottomless? What?

What, hold up all day, all day. Yep. And I appreciate the pro tip of putting the salt on the ketchup. I'm in agreeance with that move, for sure. For sure. So, yeah, no, I'm I'm here for this whole conversation.

If you want to really get like unnecessarily detailed with it, what I like to do is sprinkle salt onto my ketchup, sprinkle a little pepper onto the catcher and then I take a fry and I stir it in. Oh shoot. Okay, that's that's an unnecessary detail I'm going to give to the top then you can just and then the key that I learned about salt is that you can always add more salt, but you can never take salt away. But you can always add more ketchup. So there's always a solution. If you over salt it you just add more ketchup. If you want to solve it, you add more until you get to that perfect, salty, crispy. Just I gotta eat too much of this because I'm gonna tell you what the pattern is. I mean to date is dependent. You eat too much salty, greasy. And then what do you need to counteract it? You need sweet. That's how it works. So if you have too much salty, you need sweets. So then what happens is you eat too much and then you start looking at that pie section. You start going what pie is there? If I had to choose? I had to choose it's either going to be key lime or lemon moraine. Oh, wow. Okay, okay, I go I go fries until I can't No More, and then end it with some pie. And then the next day I go, I'm never doing that again. And then you do it again. The next leg weekend?

Naturally. Yeah, naturally. Come on. I mean, how can you it keeps calling you back for sure. They gotta last so I knew that you didn't know you had around you. The we've had many a debate here in the diner. I'm a cake over pie kind of guy. But my wife vehemently disagrees with me as of many of my diner guests and good to see that our relationship was almost close. And then you told me that you go for pie over cake.

No. So here's what's interesting. I would never choose a cherry pie. I would never choose a blueberry pie. Right? I would never choose that. But I would choose a lemon moraine, a key lime and potentially a coconut cream. So I think it's the kind of pot which is really like a cakes cousin. It's not really a pie. We call it a pie. But like that's really more cake cousin. It's way more cheese cakey than it is pie.

I'm picking up what you're putting down. I might let the slider well I got to think about it.

I respect your ability to hold or drop that.

This has been by far the best 10 minutes in the diner in a minute. So, Earl, you are born and raised in Brooklyn. Tell me tell me about Tell me about a young Eurail. What's what what is he dreaming about? What is his life look like? What's relationship with family? Just fill it fill out that world for me a little bit. So I

grew up in I grew up in a project in a place called Canarsie. So it was a you know, low income housing development. My father is a dark skinned Jamaican man. And my mom is a white Jewish woman. So I like to call myself Jamaican. So you know that that detail is very important because the experience that I had growing up was, I was in a predominately African American neighborhood. And I grew up in environment where there really wasn't that many white people. So really, my only experience with white people was like my mom. So it became this thing that became a huge part of my identity growing up, because until probably, I don't know, fourth grade. Yeah, I would say fourth grade. I had no sense that it was weird that I I'm brown with a white mom. Like there was no, that didn't exist for me until people started pointing this out. And then that became the point where I got made fun of in the point where like, oh, well, he's white, or he's Oreo on the outside on the inside. I think that's where that distinction. And then it became even more fascinating. Because I I really struggled with, like, Where do I sit? This was a big deal for me. So in the cafeteria, you know, there's a famous book, which I'm sure you heard of the white or the black kids sit together in the cafeteria, right? That was that was a big part. So in my school, all the white kids sat together. And because it was predominately African American, all the schools that I went to, so I would be cool with them and cool with, you know, my friends, and then like during lunch was always is really weird. Like, who am I choosing as my sense of self. And it gets even more confusing if you want to go deep down into this rabbit hole. Because every summer after I was probably about seven or eight years old, my mom would send me away to summer camp. So I would go to a Jewish sleepaway summer camp, right. And I'm gonna spend four weeks listening to Dave Matthews, and, you know, this kind of vibe, and then come home to like, you know, Jay Z. And so, so it was very interesting, because I felt like I was living in two worlds. And I didn't really feel like I ever truly owned either one of them. And that was a huge part of my like, identity, huge part of like, my journey and trying to figure out how to come to grips with caring about who I am and knowing who I am. And like, what table do I sit down? And what table do not sit down? And that was? That was a big part of it. And

yeah, what a Yeah, what a mixture. I mean, you are you are the melting pot that we talk about when it comes to the United States. And and then just the fact that you said was, so was fourth grade, that you mentioned that people started pointing it out to you that it was weird, and so that you started noticing that was weird. First off, kids, telling the truth is always fascinating, right? The way kids just kind of point stuff out, but like, as weird, you're like, right? And so but for you, you know, in in thinking back to that moment, was there a as you grew as you were growing up? Did you find like senses of pride in each one of those things at different times of your life? Or was it kind of like, Oh, I'm proud about all this being this cool mixture of things? Or was it like, wow, this is actually kind of hard? Like, did you have some disdain for some of that? Like, what what was that? Like?

Yes, so the pride didn't come in until college. Okay. It was it was probably quite the opposite. I kind of wish people just didn't know, to be honest with you. So there's another element. That's kind of interesting. I couldn't articulate this when I was a kid. But you know, as adults, we have more access to language and complex thought. When I was a kid, I had also really other weird thing. In my neighborhood. All of my friends, my entire friends circle that, like I hung out with my core friend circle. I was the only kid with a dad. Right? So this is really fascinating. My dad, not only was there but he was actively involved, like legit cool dad, like, I still think he's one of the coolest guys in the world. Tools. Interesting is I had a lot of pride around my dad, because he was black. And cool, right? But what happened is, my mom's a fantastic woman, right? You know, and I love her for 1000 reasons, we're still very, very close. But as a white woman, I noticed I kind of felt this, like, I'd rather my dad calm than my mom calm, rather than like, like, I don't want my mom to think, and I couldn't articulate it like back then it's not that I don't love you. It's just that, like, it's cooler for me. Because of him. Like, he's like a huge, like, you know, he's a little bit of a rarity. And he has, like, he's muscular. He's, you know, cool, charismatic guy. So I wanted him around more. And I wanted that more to be my identity. So growing up for me, I noticed I kind of pushed away the white identity that I had, and I never would deny it. And I never would say it wasn't there. But I'd rather not talk about it. If I didn't have that kind of was a case unless I was in what I would call a safe environment. So if I was in like a Jewish summer camp, or if I was at like a synagogue or an after school program or something, then I leaned more heavily into my white side because I wanted people to be like, Well, why is this brown boy, you know, the Raisin in the bowl of milk, if you will, like why? I don't get it and I would lean more. So it almost became opportunistic, to be honest with you, where does it behoove me to own this part of my identity? And I wouldn't lean into it until I kind of in college is when I actually learned to integrate both of them. And I just didn't have that access that Accessibility when I was growing up. Yeah.

I mean, that makes sense where you go, you play the game, right? So I mean, so much of our youth is, is about survival socially. Right? And I know for you, you mentioned that you grew up in a lower income household. And so you know, survival may that word may hit you differently. And so feel free to push back on that, but, but still, like socially, there is a lot of it's a lot of survival mentality, like, how can I get through and be kind of unnoticed, or kind of just, like, skirt past and just be seen for the reasons that I'm cool? And not the reasons why I'm different. And, and so that is, that makes a lot of sense to me. And what a juxtaposition to be going from a place like Canarsie, that is predominantly black, African American, to and Caribbean America, etc, etc. And to a place that is, like, you mentioned, a lot of Jewish schools, right, like, I mean, those are, those are PW eyes, essentially, the Jewish religion is a predominantly white institution. And so that had to be fascinating for you, you know, a big word that is often thrown around when I hear about conversations like this, and people have been in somewhat similar situations at various points in their life, the words code switch, right, where you're feeling the need to code switch, did you did you feel that as well that you have a vernacular in Brooklyn and a vernacular at summer camp, like you mentioned, like you're crushing hands marching in number 41. And Dave Matthews over here, and you're over here having a bit of a reasonable doubt moment? With, with over

Brooklyn? Yeah, no, the code switching was and that was the thing that I didn't necessarily realize how to do. It became a better skill. But here's where it gets really fascinating. And people who who have a mixed identity, whenever I bring this up, get it right, it may not be aware. So when I was in like the like Jewish summer camps, right? I actually had this pressure to be more stereotypical black, not from me, but from those around me, like, oh, rails from the projects, you know, he's real. You know, he's real. You know, he's a thug, and everything like that. And I was like, I'm really not a thug. Like, there's really like, I can I know how to interact in it. But I'm not I mean, if you hear me talking, I'm not going to no one's going to confuse me for you know, a 1990s Hardcore hip hop rapper, right? Like, I'm aware of my presence, right. But I actually felt like I needed to, to play it up. So some of the code switching I did, which was kind of weird, is I actually acted blacker, or more urban, around the white people, instead of more white around the white people, because I felt like I had to play a character of what they expected of me. I thought they like they expected me to smoke weed. And I didn't smoke weed. So it's like, I have to, like, understand how to be like, oh, yeah, you know, getting the ELLs and everything I'm like, I don't know what else, I don't smoke weed. But like, they expect me to do that. And I don't want to let them down. So I actually turn the volume up on it. And then when I was around my black friends, I turned my black down, because I'm like, I don't want them to think I'm trying too hard, because that's what it felt like when I was on. So it was actually a very interesting, so less of trying to be more black here and more white here, but actually turning up the opposite pole to try to fit what I thought was a perceived character that I was supposed to play depending upon where I was.

That is fascinating. We both of my parents are unapologetically white, I am unapologetic. I'm white, right? Like I'm I'm Irish and Italian. Hey, don't watch your mouth. And so but so you're right. I don't have any experiences like that whatsoever. The one some very small similarity that I have. And this is to compare the two is probably insulting. But when I went down to school, you know, I'm born and raised in New York. I went to school in North Carolina. And when I went down there, people could tell it wasn't from the south. And I wanted them to know where I was from. Right. Like, I've come down my New York attitude. And so I did not start saying the word y'all until I graduated from college. I refused to say the word y'all, right? Instead, I've walked in a room hey, don't we say over the Hey, I show Chappelle. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I think, yeah, give me give me that sweet tea. What's that? Sure. Right. Like, I would play up the axe and play up the attitude. Because like, I want you to know I'm different. And I'm not. I'm like, I'm not like y'all down here. And it was so fascinating. You know, just like, what was it? It wasn't a thought process that I had was like, alright, James, you're going in North Carolina. You got two choices. What are you going to do? But it's, that's the closest thing that I even have potentially achieved. It's not even remotely close to what you had to do with

kids. It's interesting, because you brought up a really a really poignant point, in my opinion, which is it's not a conscious effort, right? Like, if I went back into who I was, then it's not like, Alright, I'm going to do this, it's looking back, you can go, no, in your case, and I think everyone's life experiences uniquely their own. So like, you know, your unique experience was, I don't want them to think I'm one of them. Because visually, they may think, and I don't know if he was rocking the beard, because you have a luxurious beard, right? So like, people could look at you and go, Oh, that's a deep Southerner right there. And you're like, No, I want it to be very clear, it's not. So there's this like subconscious or unconscious dial, that you can turn up, you know, I can turn up, you know, my wife still makes fun of me, because I can't say ers at the end of sentences. So instead of saying water, I say water, or sneaker, you know, something like that, like, I can't get rid of that part of my life. I can say summer, but it sounds so weird. So but you know how to dial it up, and I can turn it off and turn it down, depending upon the context that I'm in. But there is a need to like, make sure people don't confuse you for this for this. So you turn it up, depending upon how you need to so it's 100% survival, it's, you know, survival is, how do I make sure I can survive you this social situation, physically safety, you know, so I could turn it up, turn it down, depending upon what I think is gonna help me survive on on multiple levels, you know, and I think that ultimately, and this is me, like getting on myself, I'm gonna get on my soapbox, and maybe it'll pop up. Right? So I think one of the things that we do as adults is we forget what it's like to be youth, right? Like to be kids. And we say, Oh, just own who you are. And be super, super, super proud of it, right. And that's exactly true. And we have to take into consideration there's a survival mechanism that has to be built. And I think what happens in a weird way is you actually have to first go through that phase, then you can decide if you want to hold on to it or let it go. And that for me was college where I decided I'm I'm exhausted, trying to play a character that I'm not. And if I can actually learn who I am. Now, if I could have learned that as a teenager, or you know, junior high school student versus a college student, I think I would have probably been better for it. But for my particular journey, I needed to go through that. So I think we can, as adults also give a little bit of slack to people who go through survival to get through and then let them discover for themselves. Like, you know what, you don't have to do that. Fitting in stuff, you can be yourself. But if you feel like who is yourself is not cool enough. Like my, my mind was always like, oh, there was a B or seven. I was like, if I was actually cool, I would be myself. But I'm not, I gotta be this guy. until like, you know, I figured out how to be actually cool.

Yeah, and knowing what we know about human brain development, who I mean, I don't know, if it's possible to know who you are, at a much younger age. Now, there's some people who go through some some pieces of life that make them grow up faster, right, like I myself was raised with more than enough, and didn't really have to think about, you know, where money was coming from, or, you know, just like, didn't have to be in constant fear of a family member, something happened to them, or whatever, and insert any of those fears that people who grew up differently than I may or may not have had to deal with. And so like, I can hang out in my naivete as much as I want. And there's some people who go through hard things in life where they lose a parent earlier, or they go through a horrible divorce or have parents or they, you know, as a as an illness as a kid, whatever, like, people grow up quicker. I do believe that. And so, but I do think it is it is fascinating when we learn some of these things. And I love that you said like Grace is a powerful word to give to those individuals that are still trying to figure it out a little bit. Or who are, you know, when we're looking at the youth and be like, why are they doing that? Right? Like, I can't believe it, like we forget what it would like to be in that moment and just being in the middle of social survival.

Yeah, yeah. You know, one of the things that I think is super funny about adults, it's a stupid thing. Adults do that, you know, I for sure, I'm sure I've done this as well, is we say one of these phrases, and it gets us frustrated. So we say one of these phrases, which is I'm trying to save you from the mistakes that I made. So you have to listen to me, right. And it's, it's said with the best intention and the purest heart. However, my response to that adult is, did you have an adult that said the exact same thing to you? Yeah, but I was still stupid to listen. Yeah, exactly. Because for lots of people, we're all too stupid until we're smart. So then what happens is people give up on youth, because they think, Oh, they're too they're like I give them I give them the best advice and they don't follow it. I was like, because you didn't follow it either. When you were younger, right? Like, you forget that you did the same thing and you think it's different because now you're older and you can look back So there's this weird dance of consistently mentoring and trying to support and help and show the folly and letting people discover for themselves. Because at the end of the day, you could tell me not to touch the stove. But until I've touched it and burned my finger, I don't really get why you're telling me not to. So it's this weird balance of I want to give you the game. So you can do it. But also I have to be okay. With I'm going to give the game and they're probably not going to listen. And that's okay. Because it's a long term game and a short term game. Yep.

Yeah. And you don't want to say the phrase, you'll understand this when you get older, but at the same time, it's like you're gonna understand it when you get older. And it just kind of is what it is. It's annoying is it is to hear that right now. If I tried to put it in any other way. It's uh, you know, I don't know. It's just yeah, you're not going to enjoy the medicine. Yeah, that's, that's powerfully put, man I love the push back on that popular phrase. So So a real you. You grow up you tell us about this, you know, this awesome. The fact that your your dad is very present in your life. He's this charismatic, larger than life kind of guy. Your mom is in your world, you're still very close with her. And at what point did you at what point did you kind of look at your life and be like, I want to do X or Y like what did you want to be when you grew up? Like you decided that you want to go to Binghamton, for example, like what was the goal in going to Binghamton and going to university there? Like was it like, oh, I can't wait to be an accountant or I can't wait to be, you know, what was that? Like?

Because it's no, no, no, please finish? Well, I

was just gonna say, I mean, you had the experience of going away to summer camp. So but a lot of times for people that grew up in places the projects as you described, they don't think that Binghamton is an option for them. Right, like Binghampton might as well be like being up to what country is that? Right? Because it just, you know, it's a so far, even though it's only four hours away four hours is crazy, right? You know, you know, what was a you know, a handful of subway stops away, you didn't really know, the rest of the world, a lot of times people in that, that grow up in those in those communities just do not have the opportunity to get out there don't even see it as an option. And they're being told, Oh, you want to leave what's wrong with us? Right? Is it kind of that crab trap mentality that sometimes happens that I welcome any pushback? Am I putting any of this wrong, man because, you know, obviously, we you have the lived experience? I have the herd experience. So, but yeah, I'm just curious to your thoughts.

Yeah. So for me college was my way out, you know, like, I didn't know about like choosing a career or anything. It was just, I want to get out the projects, and I can't shoot a basketball. Well, I can't rap. And I can't throw a punch really well, right. So you know, those kinds of things of athletic sports and music wasn't on the table for me. So I was like, well, the only way I'm going to get out is is college, I was fortunate enough that I have an older brother, who was two years my senior he went to Binghamton University. So at 16 years old, I went up to visit him when he was in college. And I was like, this is the coolest place in the whole world. There were girls just walking around in his dorm just like, like, they live right there. And he's like, yeah, he lives right there. I'm like, but like, no one is gonna like tell you, you can't go and like no, because go right into their rooms right now, if they let us in, if he would knock on his friend's doors, and they let us and I'm like, I'm sitting on a girl's bed. This is the coolest thing in the world. How does not everyone, you know, and then like, and I'll be very honest, like the caliber of girls that I saw. were significant, significantly more beautiful than the caliber of girls that walk around my neighborhood. Again, I want to say that as any of my friends from the neighborhood watching it, it's just for me, I was like, they're all here. The only reason to get me to go it was a damn good motivator. Because, you know, I was like, man, so, so going to visit my brother and seeing, you know, going to a college party, and you know, going to like, seeing and I saw kids who were cool, you know, who would who would be back at my neighborhood and be considered cool kids. But here they are in this new environments, like going after academics and going after like positiveness. And it just felt like for me, I should do it. And then when I was also that same year, I took part in a program, which was a black student union at Columbia University ran program where they took kids like me, and brought us onto the campus for a weekend. So actually stayed on the Columbia. So I had this positive experience of being into that I have this positive experience with Columbia. And I go, this is don't I have to go like, there's no and then I didn't even apply to one college in New York City. I didn't even want the potential option that I got accepted into. So everything I applied, was basically in New York. So my guidance counselor, the advice she gave me was, if you stay within your state you pay less tuition. So I wanted to save as much money as possible. So I applied to all the SUNY schools that, you know, like five or six SUNY schools that I thought like were the best. Because they people told me they were the best, right? And I got into being I'm saying, because, you know, I probably had a little bit of nepotism luck, because my brother went there and colleges, like, you know, legacies and stuff like that. So he did the hard work, I snuck in. And, for me, just being there was fun. The funny thing is, there's another there's another question that I hate that we asked kids. I hate I hated it. And I hate when other people ask it, which is, oh, what do you want to be when you grow up? Or when you want to eat? We ask the question, I'm gonna tell you why I hate it. Because 99% of kids have no idea how to answer that question. So what they do is, they answer you with something that shuts you the adult up. doctor, lawyer, teacher, top engineer, right? There's these, they we have no idea when we're a kid, like a teenager or whatever. Like we've never shadowed a doctor, we've never been with a veterinarian to know what work they do to know if it really is. I know that as a kid. Somewhere along the line, adults started asking me what do I want to do? And I started going, when did we have that class? When did we have the what you should like I've done the math class. I've been English class, I've been a history class. I've never done the what I should do with my life class. So I start feeling nervous. So I start answering things that aren't true. Just to shut people up. And my answer was lawyer, that was my answer. I'm going to be a lawyer. Every time I said lawyer, everyone went, Wow, lawyer. And I was like, it's not really science base, because I wasn't really good at it. It's not really math based, like engineering or scientist or doctor. So I felt like, you know, I could do it. So that was the original path that I was on. I

love that. Yeah.

shut people up. Not because I knew what I was doing.

Yeah. That's amazing. Another another mic drop there for sure. With with that, quote, I hate that question. It's a terrible question. It's a lazy question. It's a question we should ask apparently, according to whatever places we like you know, it no point in our lives. Are we just allowed to be satisfied for each other, right? It's like, Oh, okay. You went to college? What? What are you going to do when you get out of college? When are you gonna get married? When you have kids? When are you gonna do this? What are you gonna retire? When are you gonna die? Right? Like, it's always like, when's this gonna happen next, instead of like, that's cool that you're in this moment. Has it feel

right? No, it's no one celebrates the moment you're in college, what's gonna do after you graduate? Like, I just got here? Like, I don't know, I'm gonna talk to her. Like, that's my main goal is you want to know, like, holler at her. Make her my girl. That's what I want to do.

Yeah, this is also funny URL because you you like I have been to hundreds of college campuses at this point in our in our lives, just by the fortunate nature of what we do. And the fact that you called SUNY Binghamton beautiful, is hysterical to me. Because when it comes to college campuses, it's not the most beautiful, but to your life experience at that moment. And the opportunity that was there, the humans that were walking around, you're like, This is paradise. And it's so right. And I don't blame you for that. Right. But it's just so fascinating. I know, in the schools that we've mentioned, we've been to some of those quintessential like, oh, I butcher this college has been in a few movies, because it looks like a stereotypical college. And but yeah, I think it's I think it's so cool. That to hear that, you know, based on your life, life experience up to that point. That was beautiful. And I love that. That's amazing.

Yeah, I mean, what's so fascinating is like, there's so much of the world that you don't know that you don't know, right? Yes. Like if you had on, you know, like a Syracuse University or a Cornell these things look like a postcard of a college. Right? They look very, but for me, the fact that we had like, like all this grass and trees, it's my Wow, look at that. I will say this, though, I will give being upset a lot of credit that they if you haven't been there in the last two years. They have built an incredible campus. It did not. I mean, all of my friends that graduated with me, we're like, look at his dorm they got now like, it's like a legit hotel suite. And before it was like, Really, they have definitely invested into it. But you know, I think the it's the hole in the land of the blind, the one eyed man rules, you know, like, absolutely be in the projects, and then you put me out to any university campus. It's beautiful.

Yeah, no, that's why that's why I wanted to call attention to it because that Yeah, I thought that was That was incredible. It's a little time that I picked up on while you were talking. So when did becoming a professional speaker come into your world, right? You're rapping um, Tim. You're you eventually do pick a major because you graduate right and stuff like that, like, you know, how do we get from that point? To being being a professional speaker.

Yeah, so my entry point was actually I got really, really lucky. And I got introduced to entrepreneurship. I didn't know that existed, I didn't know it was a thing. And I got a mentor who was a professor there who was an entrepreneurship professor and involved with the club. It's called students in free enterprise. Now it's called an actus. And it's basically a business based club, and I wanted to be involved with it because of him. So one of the pieces of advice that he gave me was, you know, go to as many events as you can and meet as many people here as many speakers as you can. And at first I go to tons of speakers who came to my campus and tons of events, I went to, like local events for like the Chamber of Commerce, and they loved me because I was a college student. And every event was so boring about, like, this is not a disrespect to those people. So it wasn't for me, it wasn't built for someone like me. And I remember thinking to myself, You know what, this is the price of admission. If I want to be successful, I knew I wanted to make money, I knew I wanted to be successful. And I thought the price of admission was I had to go to these boring like things. So that entrepreneurship professors name is Angelo, Mr. Angelo Granny's class, fantastic name, rhymes. Sounds like, like honey on your tongue. Perfect, perfect. He created a business plan competition, where if you were student in his class, you could present your idea. And then you would win $5,000, which was amazing. So I did that I won that competition and actually started a business when I was in college, that was an off campus housing service for students. But doing that, I went to see this one speaker, and he was amazing. Unfortunately, I don't know his name, I'm sure he may not even be alive because he was older. And when he spoke, but the guy was incredible. Lighten up the stage, moving left to right, had people laughing had people doing all this stuff. And it was the first time in my life where I saw a guy and I was like, I want to do that. I want to I don't know what the hell back guys doing. But I want to do that for the rest of my life. And I think and it was funny, I was like, I think I'd be really good at it. And I never felt that way about anything. So it was because of the entrepreneurship journey, and then going to these events and and having these bad ones juxtaposition with this really good one. That made me go. That's the thing I want to do.

Yeah, that's awesome. I guess I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. But growing up in what many would perceive to be an unstable environment and the projects? As far as like, where's money coming from? What are we doing? What do we got to do to you know, to make sure we get food on the table, I don't know exactly what your journey was. So again, please feel please fill in these gaps where I know I'm leaving them now. But to go from that, a lot of people in those roles when they grow up with instability only wants stability. Entrepreneurship is seen as not stability, right? It's it's a risk, it's a risk taking thing. And so I think it's cool that you kind of bucked a pattern. It's not 100%, you know, for everybody that falls into it. But you know, the fact that you're like coming out of this scenario in Brooklyn, go into college, learn about entrepreneurship, and you're like, hell yeah, something super risky. Let's go. Right. And you kind of took that was that did? Did you? Did you notice that? Or have you gone back and thought about that in some of those moments? Or is the way that I'm writing this? Just as someone who's not a part of that either scenario, writing it wrong?

No, it's a really, really good question. You know, I don't think that I ever looked at it. I don't think I have the conscious ability to look at my life as in stable when I could look at it as is. I don't want to be here. So I never felt like oh, when am I going to get food? Am I not going to answer the I don't think I process it that way. I just process. I don't want to be here. And then what happened to me was, I had this moment where I don't even think my dad even knows this. It was this really small moment. I never forgot it. It was a super like, my dad was hanging out with me late at night. And I think it was probably like a Saturday night or something. And we're kicking it having a great time and just talking it up. And it was snowing outside. And my dad had to go to work Sunday, Sunday morning. So I remember staying up and I probably stayed up till like three or something like that. And then you know, we said goodnight. And I didn't go to sleep. I was just like, I guess watching TV. And my dad wakes up and I was like, oh snap like I'm supposed to be asleep. So I turned the TV off but I'm awake. And I see my dad like get ready for work and like, you know, it's probably like four 430 in the morning. You know, get ready for work and he's slowly pulling his clothes. You could tell he's just beat because he didn't sleep more than a couple hours and I looked out the window Though I saw him walking through the snow, you know, on his way to go to work. And I just remember thinking to myself, like, he does not want to go to work right now, you know, he does not want to go to that job right now he wants to stay home. But he has to. And I think that it like burned inside of me like, I never want to have a job that's going to force me to be somewhere if I didn't want to be there. So I think the way I looked at entrepreneurship, is I looked at it as a freedom thing. And again, anyone who's an entrepreneur knows they work more than someone who has a job. But I saw that a business owner could decide whether they showed up or not. And if I, my belief at the time was, well, if my dad owned the company, he wouldn't have to go. And he could just like, call in or do whatever. So I think I built this, like, maybe an allergic reaction to having a job because of that moment. And I don't know if I've ever really processed it until you ask that question. But that's the first vision that popped in my head of seeing him slip through the snow after a couple of hours of sleep and going. I never want to do that. So yeah, I was I would say that's where it came from.

Yeah. Thanks for telling us that story. Man that's painted a powerful visual. And I appreciate and I appreciate you pushing back on some of the parts where I spoke incorrectly. Thank you for that. Because it's your story. I want to make sure we get it right. So much love on that. So you choose entrepreneurship you want to be you decide I want to be a speaker. And now, now you're killing the game, right? Like me, you are, you're one of those speakers that as I was coming up, I knew your name. And you were someone that I had seen as someone who this person's made it, they are doing it full time, and they are successful, they are well loved. The way that people talk about him is very high. And not just like He's a good dude. It's a He's a good dude. And he's also really great on the stage as well. Right? It's platform skills. And so I love that. And I'm not I want I want to say is I appreciate that you were your role modeling even when you didn't really know me. And you're someone that when I was like, Can I do this full time? Should I do this full time do people do this full time? Or is it always just kind of something they do on the side? You are, you are one of the early ones. For me that showed me that because I was a part of an agency that had 50 people on the roster. And when I first got on the roster, I assumed everybody was full time. And then I learned very quickly that only like three of the 50 were full time. And I was like what the hell the rest of y'all doing. And so like, I didn't have as many role models than names in that. And so I just want to thank you for having the success that you had and putting in and having the, the charisma and the connection that you know, people spoke about you because it was just one of the things like okay, this is a possibility, like people can do this, because I think that's what I want to do now. And so, just a quick shout out to you I met No. But what what I'm wondering is that, you know, when I introduced you, we talked to you, I introduced you as a human behavioral investigator, these are terms that you've come up with. Now, based on how you describe the girls at Binghamton. I think I understand where you came up with this. But no, I'm just playing man. But But still, I'm curious. What does that mean? Right? You're a speaker about a human behavioral investigator, you're someone who studies the intricacies of human dynamics and relationships. Tell us a little bit more about that, and how and how you chose that. Because choosing to be a speaker is one thing, choosing what you want to speak about. And then diving all the way ln is another.

Yeah. Well, you know, I'll take one step back, just to thank you for that comment. I think and you know this to one of the things that this profession, being a public speakers professional speaker specifically affords you the opportunity to do is impact people that you probably will never know how you impacted them. You know, there's lots of people that look at James and will say, my life had changed forever when that dude with a beard came and just rocked it right. And so to hear you say those things is really, really beautiful. Because a lot of the work that we do, the impact is anecdotal, you know, you have to hear a story five years after it happened and or get that Facebook message six years after it happened and be like, oh, man, like there was something there. So I just want to acknowledge the beauty of what you said. And that to be in a position where you can make a difference is probably why folks like you and I get so pulled to industries like this. So I just want to acknowledge that part. The second thing about how do you find it doesn't come easy. I think. I think one of the challenging most challenging parts as a speaker is you spend the first years trying to figure out what's my thing? You know, like you start out someone you're not it's I just think it's part of the process unless you're really lucky like You're like a Uh, diet version of Tony Robbins or like a light version of Les Brown or you know, like, your your I see him all the time I see the speakers all the time. I'm like, okay, that guy likes Eric Thomas. He's like clearly at light version of BT right? Yeah. You know, because in the beginning, you're trying to figure out who are you on stage? What is your stage presence? What is your you know, then what is your topic? What are you really, really good at? So it's a process. And you know, what happened for me is I started looking at what interests me naturally, what do I don't need a lot of motivation to do. And it's, it's really the study of people. I love, human social dynamics. I love interacting with people. There's a podcast that has lots of great content that I ran called The Art of likeability. And it was all about, like, how to be more likeable, and how to connect with people, because I believe relationships with humans, in my humble opinion, is the single most valuable asset that exist, you know, if you remove positive relationships, but increase everything else, it's still a pretty crappy life. And if you have great relationships with people and decreased everything else, it's still a pretty good life. So I think it's like one of those one things that if you actually build good relationships with others, and then as a byproduct of that is you have to be good with yourself. Because if you can't be good with yourself, you can't be the best with others. I think it just becomes the the biggest domino that knocks over all dominoes. So I started getting really interested in human behaviors, why do we make the decisions we make? Because I had the black and white thing going on, I was really fascinated understanding white culture, very fascinated to understand black culture. So I kind of observed it from afar, and then tried to incorporate it. And then when I got into college, I was so lucky that I met the coolest people in the world. They happen to be Latino. So I joined the Latino fraternity, because I was like, you know, they said, You can be whoever you want in college, so I became a Dominican.

What are you are you a ul ul? li ul? Yeah. Are you? Yeah, it's amazing, man. I'm an iota Phi Theta fraternity Incorporated. That's NPHC organization.

Oh, yeah. No, I have a very, very good friend who is in so small work, same colors, same color. Exact same colors. Yeah. Small world, man. But the most people don't even know you. Well, so it's back. And you know, it is amazing. But what happened with all of those dynamics, whether it was Latino culture, black culture, white culture, and then it was, I started being around very successful people because of entrepreneurial endeavors. I became fascinated to understand like, what are the social norms? Like, what do you do here that you don't do here? How do they think here? How do they think here, and it kind of became like fun to kind of codify it and kind of say, like, I want you to notice, people say this. And it's, it's actually, like, hurtful, people do this. And it's stupid. All the people you love, notice how they do these things, and all the people you hate. So it's something that I didn't know this term I just recently heard, it's called subject object awareness. So we're subject to so many things, when you grow up in inner city, you're subject to inner city culture, when you grow up in role you're subject to it. But if you actually step back and look at it, it becomes an object, it becomes an object. Now you can decide whether you use it or not use it. And that's where I think my my interest came in. And then when I started seeing the power of it, and sharing it, it clicked. And I just kind of dug really, really deep in it, but it took a very long time to get there. And I was doing all these other things before that.

Yeah. First of all, thank you for the journey you just took us on? And it is, yeah, how does one arrive at what they are going to speak about? Right? It's like, okay, not, not only am I gonna get on stage and talk to all these people about a specific topic that ideally mean something to me that I think you'd mean to them, but also you got to pay me, right, so I need to be an expert at it, or at least an expert, like, or I have to have a powerful story about it. You know, one way or the other. I think, you know, there are some people who go through something really traumatic and they realize that speakings away that they can give back to a community that maybe have gone through a similar traumatic thing, or prevent another community from committing the same traumatic act or whatever. Right. And so sometimes there's people who go through an immediate trauma that are like, I need to talk about this now. Um, but most speakers, I don't think have that. Now. I think they have something else kind of what you were talking about, like, well, what matters to me, and what do I think should matter to other people? And so I love the way that you were speaking about that, and your journey for how you arrived at that. And so, you know, we talked about the art of likeability. And we talked about just being super fascinated by human behavior. And would you say right now, you know, if I if I were to look at your business, like a pie chart, what percentage of your business is still IRL on stage speaking to an audience He's booked him to speak. Versus I know you have some other cool programs where you're helping other speakers learn what they who and what they are on the platform. Right. And you have some cool programs around that have true speaking success. And, you know, there's another thing that you do called message a masterpiece. Like, you know, what, what does your business look like right now?

Yeah. So you know, the machine that drives everything. For me, it's still speaking, it's still 80% of the pie, right? It's the thing that I have, I have in the past attempted to say, I'm going to pull back from speaking and stop doing it. And I'm going to do you know, this coaching program, or this consulting, or this online course, or, you know, these other projects, and ultimately, nothing really has driven me as much as public speaking has, like, it's fun. It's work that, honestly, I know, you feel this way, James, like, there's a part of you that still can't believe you get paid to do it. Like I would literally, I would do it for no money. You know, because I enjoy it that much. The program working on that it's and it's funny how it's how speaking works, right? What I noticed about everything I do, speaking is the CORE Center that drives it. So like there's a software that I'm in the process of building called talk about, and it's to help speakers in a really, really deep level, get great feedback, but also get more speaking opportunities from each talk. And that wouldn't be possible. If I didn't have so much experience speaking, feeling the frustrations, I feel coaching people feeling the frustrations they feel and being like, Man, I wish there was a better way. So for me, the public speaking is still the biggest driver. With the coaching is all nice money. The consulting is all nice money, and I enjoy doing it. But if I stopped speaking, the whole train stops, you know, so like, it's a big part of what I do.

Okay, great. That's good. I didn't I did not know that. I know you have these other cool irons in the fire. I wasn't sure what was keeping most of the fire litho. So to hear that it speaking is is awesome. And, you know, I want to go back to the just the art of likeability not necessarily the podcast, but just the concept of likability. I have a buddy of mine. He's a fellow speaker named Antonio nerves. And he says, you know, people always come up to me and ask me if I'm charismatic or not. And so, you know, I have to tell them did it. Have you ever walked into a party? And then somebody came up to you a little while later and said, When did you get here? Because if so, then you're probably not charismatic, right? And so, like when we think about likability, likability means so many different things. It's not just like, you're the coolest person in the room that everybody gravitates towards. It means a whole bunch, but it's also a giant source of insecurity. For many of like, what is likability? We still hold on to some of those things. Like we were talking about those social dynamics from high school as well. I was never the cool kid. I was, you said I was ever a rapper. I couldn't shoot a basketball. I couldn't do like some of those tropes that, you know, would probably make you quote unquote, cool. Or alpha, right? You weren't the star quarterback. And so a lot of us, many of us grow up being like, Well, I'm not cool. And cool. This is something that we sometimes attached to likability, but they're different. I think we could speak to that they're different. I'm curious to hear how you would describe the difference between being cool and being likeable. And also, I'd love to hear your thoughts on. As we go through life, making friends as an adult is weird. And so like, I had this experience yesterday, where I had these friends of mine, who are new, newer friends of mine, where I asked them, hey, you know, can we all hang out this weekend, and then Sunday rolls around, which was a day we kind of talked about it. And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, like, I wound up showing up at this guy's house being the last one to hear that everybody else was hanging out. Right? And like, I was like, Oh, shit. I'm trying to get liked by these guys so that I can be memorable and they want to hang out with me. But you know, at the same time, it's like, I'm the last one to hear about the plans that I tried to set up and, and so like, I got a little selfish stuff going on right now here in this question as well URL if you can't tell, we can unpack it later. But still, that idea of of likeability. And being seen as cool, is something that a lot of people carry him as a chip on their shoulder for a long time. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, you know, it was one of the things that I thought was a very intriguing specificity, right. The idea of likeability. And I think what happens is, that word can conjure up like Junior High School popularity contest, yeah, high school, like how cool Am I Am I popular Am I Am I accepted? Do you do you validate me? And I think that is a an entry level view. Whenever I think a mature viewpoint of it is, at the end of the day, we like to be around people we like. And I think people who say, I don't care if people like me, I always think that's BS, because you are around people who like you. And if you don't have anyone who likes you, you're probably a miserable person and you're unhappy. You need someone you need. We all need someone we need, like a couple people that we enjoy being around. And for me, I see likability as something, you know, a charisma, if you will, I used to think that you were either born with it, and you're like, Antonio, and ABS was like, the coolest guy in the world, right? And you're either born with it, like, you know, maybe he's born with it, because he was like, Look at me, I'm a Nickelodeon host. And now I'm gonna be a speaker. That's like, okay, cool guy. Dammit, you're so cool. You know, and I love that guy. He's an amazing guy, you know. And I used to think like, some people like him, grew up with it. And he was lucky and he was part of the genetic lottery. And what I wanted to do was say, No, you know, anyone can access it if they want, anyone can do it. Because what I studied people, and I studied patterns, I was like, there's really specific things that the most charismatic the most it factor people do, that people who don't do, who don't fall into that category don't do. So I wanted to be able to access it and use it whenever I wanted to. So I can have this deep meaningful thing called relationships. So I think that the distinction is that likability is about creating a space where you like yourself, and you like the people who are around you, and the people who are around you like you. Because I think that you can love someone, but not like them. And that's, that's a tough pill to swallow. I always wanted to say if I'm in people's lives, I want them to want to be in my life, too. I don't want them to be like in my life out of obligation. So I think like ability and the ability to move it from subject like it just happens to objects. I can look at it and choose to use it how I want gives you accessibility to social power that typically only a few people have, and I think it should be democratized for everyone.

Yeah, I love that brother. I love that. I think I respect I respect the way that you put that. And I agree that it's so funny when we talked about likability, like I myself went to that that immature place of like, Do you like me, right? I clearly have stuff that I'm working out with my counselor, and I'm grateful for. But still write like, it is funny how that moment of our life impacted us so much. Even thinking about the way that you talked about being in upstate New York and starting to claim upstate New York, upstate New York is not cool. Right? There are parts of it that are cool. But as far as to the general world, telling somebody you're from Brooklyn and telling someone that you're from upstate New York, carries two very different things. Right. And, and I love how part of of getting to being more likeable and realizing that being good in your own skin is being comfortable with where you are and realizing that where you are who you are, is enough, right? Yeah, I'm enough to be liked. I am enough to be appreciated. I'm enough to be around, I'm enough to want you know, for someone to be friends with, I'm enough for all that kind of stuff, then like the way that you talked about upstate New York I think is a way that I would love to get to a place that I would love to get to with how I talk about myself of like, yeah, no, I'm just, I'm here, right? You either want to be friends with me or you don't. But there's still part of me that's like, come on. Right. And so much of that has to do with being secure with yourself. And there's there's there's power of that self awareness and likability that that I think comes out. Would you agree?

Yeah, I think what happens when you when you when you can use likability as a tool, your confidence goes through the roof at the end of the day, what is confidence? Confidence is knowing I can do something really well. That's what confidence is, like when I have swag when I'm a basketball player, because I know I'm like I'm really, really good at it. So like ability gives you an incredible amount of swag when you're interacting with people, right? So like a very simple thing. That just to make this a little more practical for folks, there's a I don't know if it's idiom, if that's the right word, right? But there's a value that I live by is be interested in people. And that's how you become interesting. So what most people do when they try to be likeable, is they try to impress someone, let me do this thing for you. Or let me show you how cool I am or let me humble brag, and it's actually the antithesis of likability, where in reality, the emotion that people feel when they are in Your presence is the emotion they transfer to you. So for example, if I meet you, James and I become fascinated by you, James, tell me about where you're from. Tell me about you. Oh my gosh, you do that? Tell me more about that. How did you Okay, but what do you like about it? What do you hate about? Who do you think is awesome? Like, I become super fascinated and most people aren't used to someone generally being interested in fascinated them. So if I'm interested in other people, and then I just leave that conversation, I could have never said a one word about who I am what I do, but people be like, I like that guy. I don't know. It's not about that. I like that. That's a cool guy right there. What's his name? I don't know. But I like him. What's he do? Like, um, where's he live? I don't know. But so one of the things that I would encourage people to consider is taking a huge fascination in people. This is one of the things that I'm big on when it comes to this. I'm gonna throw this in as a bonus here. One of the worst questions to ask people is what do you do for a living? I'm actually a big fan of never asking that question. Again. The question that I love to ask instead is, what's one thing new or exciting in your life? And I let them if now if they happen to talk about work. Fantastic. But for some people, they don't want to talk about work. Maybe they hate their job, and they want to talk about how they homebrew kombucha instead, right? So like, and they have no place where no, no one ever asked them. How's your home brewing kombucha going? Like? What are you excited by like, well, if you're actually interested, I'm home brewing kombucha, I never heard of Bucha. Tell me more about what the heck is kombucha? Why you do that? Well, now I actually get fascinated. So I think one of the ways that we deal with it is realizing that if we can utilize it as a tool, and we can use it as an a thing, if you will, then when I'm with you, I know I can use it to get to know you, because I care about you. And I want to get to know you as a human. And then by definition, you care about me and want to get to know me. So it's this kind of reciprocal thing where I first become interested in you, then by definition, I become interesting to you, and you want to be around me. And it's just you know, as simple as caring about other people and asking them questions and letting them shine. And then that allows them to feel like wow, when I'm around James, I shine, I want to be around James Moore.

Brother, I absolutely freaking love what you just said, Tina, and I will sometimes talk about how on stage we'll talk about how to have better conversations and whatnot. And we say you have a choice, be interesting or be interested. And being interested is the far easier and far most successful choice, right? interested, if you're being interested, I should say is the easiest choice now. Because being interesting, or assuming that you're interesting is kind of like stepping up to bat and be like I made a home run. Right? And that's it. But realistically, what what's your percentage of hitting a home run probably pretty low. But if you say Yo, I'm gonna get on base, right, I'm just gonna get on base, I'm gonna hit, I'm gonna hit a single or whatever, right? Like, you are far more likely to succeed. And that's kind of that that's the way we look at interesting versus interested. And choosing interested is always the best way to say to me, you make somebody else look good, you make somebody else feel good. And we remember people who made us feel and look good. We remember individuals who valued us, and we hold on to those people. A great question lasts longer than an impressive moment. Right? A great question is something and so being interested is something that we it just it just it just is far more sticky. And so that's what I love about what you just shared. And yeah, I appreciate it greatly man. Earl, we could talk about this kind of stuff for for a long time. And and I hope that people will check you out on a real moody.com and, and learn more about how they can learn about being more likeable slashes how they can learn a little bit more about their human behavior and interacting with others and how to be more successful in social situations and in work situations and, and leadership opportunities. Now you deliver so much value to those that get to spend time with you. And so I hope that people will check him out on his website and various other places anywhere else that people should should look you up or uh

yeah, the great thing about having a weird name like a rel moody is that no one else in the world has it. So I am the only URL moody on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever so you know, I'm probably most active online, maybe Facebook or Instagram. So feel free to check me out LinkedIn is wonderful as well. But ultimately, reach out if you listen to the podcast genuinely send me a DM and be like yo, I loved your diner talk interview means the world to me to get messages like that. So I would just encourage people to reach out if they are so interested to do so. And I would be very interested in your outreach

Oh, that's awesome. A R E L is how you spell Arel. And it's moodie with an IE. So Arel well, thank you so much for coming and kicking it with me the diner man, it means a world that we got to link up in this way.

Well, I look forward to the day in which we do this interview at a real diner with some waffle fries and you having a slice of cake and me having a slice a lemon Moray,

let's go my guy Let's go. Y'all that was my time. But the real moody what an exceptional man. I just really appreciate it his story from talking about growing up in Canarsie and, and and having these two beautiful parents who are just trying to do right by their family and put in the work and then learn about Binghamton and maybe go to Binghamton because there's some hot women around but then learning about the opportunity, and the beautiful green grass of upstate New York, and hearing how he then dove into entrepreneurship being a speaker to the point where he now teaches us to get out of our own way and recognize that in conversations, we just need to ask cool questions. The difference between small talk and a cool conversation is asking better questions and that is why my friends I end every single podcast with the phrase of do me a favor to the next time we kick it in the diner. Punch that small talk in the face by asking better questions. You all take care. This has been special be well.