Vulnerability vs. Perfectionism with Healthy Relationships Speaker, Bonny Shade

Welcome to diner Talks with James. slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends. We never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be eating my friends,

Welcome to another episode of diner talks with James. I'm James and I'm pumped to be here kicking in with you. How the heck are you friends? Man, it feels good to just hang out with you in the diner one more time. Are you enjoying yourselves? In the diner? Friends, podcasting is a fascinating medium. And I literally have no clue who is listening to this. Somebody came up to me and said, Hey, I really like your podcast the other day. And it was a good friend of mine. Let's be clear. It was just some random stranger. But I was like, oh, shoot you listen to it. This is just a fascinating medium because I have no idea who downloads it. I have no idea how long people listen to episodes. I don't know what's happening. Is there anybody out there? It's all good. If not, just please tell me there is. But seriously, I would love to hear your thoughts about this. So if you ever want to shoot me a message I am James at James T Robo. I'm an email James T Robo on the old Instagram or social media, but let me know what you like about the show what you'd like more of what you'd like less of I would love to deliver the experience that you want in the diner because your boy is trying to get at least 20% tip out here. Let's go. Friends. I have someone on the podcast that I have been dying to get on it for a minute. She is a dear friend but she's she's hustles y'all. It is tough to get a hold of Bonny but I am super excited that she is here. She has grown into one of Tina and I's closest friends and just a great human who's going through some things in her life around the same time that Tina and I are going through some things in our life and to watch her friendship with my wife blossom is it brings a tear to the eye because you want somebody to love your person the way you love your person and it's just really cool to watch their friendship in particular grow and I just have always had the utmost respect for Bonny Shade. So let me tell you about her first off her name is Bonnie shade is just a badass name right sounds like she could be like I don't know like a detective that in Miami or something like that you'll binding shade coming around the block anyway, I'm gonna keep it movin with the introduction at this point. She helps student leaders professionals learn how to prevent sexual violence, build healthy relationships and empower each other to feel like they belong. As a professional speaker and curriculum designer with their own company Bonnie shade speaks naturally. She travels and speaks to over 10,000 students annually. She also serves as the Associate Director for Fraternity and Sorority Life at the University of North Carolina Charlotte when she's not working Bonnie enjoy spending your time with her family. Her partner Chris, and their two tiny humans she loves chicken wings bone in only says Bonnie shade. She also crushes a good bourbon and imbibes in a good pun every once in a while y'all let's bring out the one and only bringing the heat all day Bonny Shade was good.

Ah, this intro phone and chicken wings only though. You're not eating bone in chicken wings. They're called nuggets. Nuggets.

Yeah. I don't come out with nuggies when did we start calling them? No,

no. That's a baby Yoda thing. I think. Right? Like vegetables. I'm like what? You know, it is what it is. All I'm saying is buffalo wings. Saucy with ranch till we get down. That's it.

That's all it was Reggie. You're not You're not here for you're not here for a dry rub.

No, go home with that. What is that? I'd ask for grilled chicken. I asked for some wings.

sauce with some sauce. The dry rot sounds like my first hook up in high school.

Just can't relate James can't relate.

Me either. I didn't hook up with anybody in high school. It's very single and very question a lot of things about myself. Okay, that's fine.

We'll get into it today. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. Why didn't the diner with me

in the diner. So Bobby, I'm so excited. You're here. Now here's the thing. I am also a person who love wings. One of the reasons why I got a smoker for the backyard is because I wanted to learn how to smoke my wings because I prefer a grilled wing over a fried Wang. So I'm trying I'm out here working on the sauces and stuff like that. So now what is you know sometimes you go to these places they got 47 sauces, and what what does an eye you do? Just like straight buffalo with the sauce are you like what kind of what kind of sauce Have you if I were able to give you a tray of 15 wings and I told you you could customize them with any number of sauces What are you doing?

Okay, so right off the bat I'm gonna get three sauces because I'm gonna do five five and five yep yeah I'm getting three sauces one option you have here the down almost always give buffalo as the baseline right you gotta have something to test out like do I like this better do I like that better? And if I don't like the other the other ones I'm getting the other sauces then I know I've got buffalo I know I've got five wings that are that are classic that I'm gonna mess up so I love like a like a buffalo that's got a little bit seasoning in it. Right so like, like a like a dry rubbed wing that is then tossed in Buffalo. That's my idea. We do a dill sauce on there. I also have like a honey mustard BBQ situation mixture of those two things. They're called called like a gold rush. And then I'd say

she puts the quote side you know in the business because Gold Rush

people don't know the the wing language

the way you almost had to say we're gonna get Wingo I think that's yeah,

yeah. This is this is how we get down. I don't know the other one would just be a random like, what's the house special? What do you make it in the back? That's it's delightful.

Yeah. I love it. I love it. There's a places in upstate New York that have three other called like trash can or garbage can or whatever trash bin where it's all the sauces mixed together. And sometimes those are pretty good.

I don't know how I feel about that. Sometimes. What you I'm never mad as long as you're going to bone in saucy when I'm gonna let you live your life. I'm not gonna judge you. Yeah, that's my favorite. But it's just intrigue. It's aggressive, aggressive flavor.

It's a lot going on your mouth. The I appreciate this as a fellow wing lover now, by this we're already on foods. Let's stick on food for a second. This shows obviously called diner talks with James. And so I'm wondering, you know, what is your late night guilty pleasure. You and I have been to conferences before we've hung out late at night before over a bite to eat if you know if you and I were at a diner or you're down in North Carolina if we're at a waffle house, right something like that. What what is your what's your late night move?

Yeah, always it I gotta know. Are they serving breakfast? 24 hours the diner? I feel like serve breakfast problems. Right? You gotta get breakfast then. Waffle or pancakes depending on where we're at. Right? I am more of a pancake lover than a waffle lover. I love myself some blueberry pancakes. Blueberries in there. There's just something man there's just something good. Extra delightful about blueberry pancakes. So if pancakes are an option, I'm getting blueberry pancakes. eggs over easy. hashbrowns fried hard with cheese on top. Yep, yep, we're at Waffle House. I'm getting them some other covered. Dice. Probably. Okay.

Dice being onions, right? Yeah, pretty sure. Yeah, I think so chunked is

chunked out like

a ham. I think I feel about that.

eating my food right? I don't know what that word. And then I'm probably just getting like a tea. A sweet tea because it's late night I don't want coffee. So I'll get like a sweet tea. Yeah, no that makes sense. Right? I logical Yeah, that's the order. It's a classic classic order. I like oh and bacon. You gotta get some bacon. Yeah, that's the order.

This is strong order. It is a blueberry. blueberry pancakes are outrageous. Just just a strong product out there. Especially the more authentic and maple syrup you can get with the blueberry pancake the more they show. comes here comes my bougie guy from the northeast. I'm close enough to Vermont close enough. But but still. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Now here's are the eggs on a separate plate. Are they obviously played into pancakes?

No pancakes are on their own plate. Okay, eggs are on the plate with the fried hashbrowns so that way when I cut into the overeasy we get we get that drip. Yeah, right into the hashbrowns

always come with the drip body appreciate. So I love it Bonnie before before before she got on the air here. She currently look a real cozy on a beautiful couch. Beautiful Scots behind her. And rockin a card again. And so I decided to call her cardigan B. Because I assume that's what Cardi B stands for. And Bonnie has been judging me ever since that moment, and I don't

know what else. Cardi B stands for other than cardigan, B. Now here we are. And now everyone's brain is going to think about this. You're welcome. Family With diner talks like this is it

Cardi B? When I think your ear worm when I think cozy? I think Cardi B

when I think of just cozy curled up on the couch watching the movie,

God, how you doing?

Each piece, let's go get away just get

a strong impression. Bonnie, I love that, that we're hanging out, you and I have known each other for got we got to be coming up on 10 years. Yeah, which is pretty awesome. And our friendship has grown over the years, which is pretty, which is pretty cool. And as I said in the intro, I just let me say it before in case I forget at the end, I really do appreciate you and appreciate you and the role that you play in our family. And you know, you're good at calling me out which I hate actually, I don't appreciate that part about you. Now, let me let me say that too. We'll get it all out. But no, I just I you know, it's interesting, because when you only see someone ever so often, right? You're in Charlotte, North Carolina, we're obviously in the Twin Cities, we're in New York before that. And but when you see someone every so often, especially at conferences is this phrase called conference friends, where these are the people that you love to bump into at your national or regional events. And they're super fun to like, you and like for those for those couple of days. You truly are friends it really like you're grateful for each other. It's amazing. Sorry, no, the conference is going to be better because that other person is there. You got someone to eat lunch with conference chicken with right and and it's really, it's awesome. And it would it's very easy to fall into conference friend mode, and just just stay in it. And I talked to some of those people once a year and I am grateful for them. But we don't we don't we don't bridge the gap. And it's it's been really special that we are more than conference friends. Planning family trip friends, is where is where we're getting to. And so I just want to just want to publicly announce so you know, it wasn't bullshitting you that I appreciate that.

I appreciate that. James, thank you. And yes, it's been it is wild, right. I'm sitting here thinking like, Damn, how long have we known each other? And what how frequently I feel like have our lives overlapped or crossed over and like what's going on with you? What's going on with me? What's going on with just just life? It is so fascinating to have people in your life who start off it's just like, maybe we did start off as those conference buddies conference friends, right? And then it has definitely transitioned and formed into a genuine friendship, which is just it feels good. I love it. Thank you for the role you play in our life too, because it's a good time.

Let's go. But alas, by me, we did only meet 10 years ago. So I don't know a lot about your childhood. So I want you to take it back. Now I know you were born and raised somewhere in Florida you're gonna tell me where in a second. And so I'm wondering where were you born and raised and just tell me a little bit what was what was young Barney shade? Like what what did you have dreams? You have aspirations? Were you a pain in the ass? Were you a goody two shoes? Were you What? What? Tell me about young Barney shade and where you grew up?

The answer is all of the above. Great. All of the above. That's it. Thanks for I'll answer the question. So I grew up in Lake Worth, Florida, which no one ever knows where Lake Worth is people like Oh, is that like South Florida? It is about 15 minutes south of west palm beach. The reason I'm really specific when I say Lake Worth is because if I tell people West Palm Beach, I was like, Oh man, that's such a nice part. Like that's amazing that you love growing up there. And I did not grow up in West Palm Beach. I grew up in Lake Worth. And Lake Worth is a very low SES area. humble beginnings for Bonnie shade and my family. Well, back in the day, right? It was Bonnie bootay it's not Bonnie shade. Right the maiden name, Dan. Am it i just i There's no way to hyphenate that you can't be booty shade out here in the streets? No. Anyway, I think so for me growing up where I grew up. As an only child. I have two half brothers, that I'll be honest with you I'm not very close with don't have a super close relationship with them. They're both a lot older than me. So for me growing up as an only child, my friends became my family. And so I was the person who I always was inviting people over to their house and hanging out or going here or doing that I was a very busy kid growing up whether it be going to getting involved in sports, softball was my sport of choice that's something that I love to do nice nice and got super into and absolutely fell in love with with that sports. But I think for me it was early on my friends became my family and I think that that's definitely a huge line that has continued for me into my adulthood. And what that looks like yeah, group their dreams aspirations hopes I've always wanted to be and still to this day sometimes questioning a veterinarian. I want to like when I was five I told my dad I wanted to own my own zoo you know the movie We Bought a Zoo that's my actual dream I want to buy a zoo I think that'd be so badass to own a zoo. But then I would be the veterinarian that takes care of all the animals who are there this is my dream growing up so much so that my undergraduate degrees in biology because I always thought I was gonna go to vet school after and then I took a right turn and decided nope, great glad I have this cool biology degree to be a professional speaker and work in higher education. So little bit about childhood me

a little bit that's so fun. Something that you and I both have in common are our biology degrees. My marine bio degree

shout out to go to school on the coast shout out to

going to school on the coast, but actually no, it did not. We made smart choices. The the the fact that you wanted to own a zoo growing up and be a veterinarian is just incredible. Now did you have did you have pets at the time? Or did you always want pets or like were you a pet household? Yeah,

we we were a dog household. We always had dogs. Every once in a while my dad, not my mom. My dad would always be like, let's catch these eggs and put it in a thing and see what hatches right. So like one time we caught these we got these five eggs that we found in the backyard. Yeah, my dad was like, well, let's let's put them in this little, you know, he built this little incubator habitat habitat for them and my mom was freaking out. She thought they were gonna be snakes. They were lizards. So we just like hatched these baby lizards. Right? Did I did have a pet snake though. My mom hated that. durables, birds. So okay, we were saying all this. And I was like the Yeah, that's the definition of a pet household. So we were that we had all of these things. And yeah, but my favorite memory with my family growing up, I was going to the zoo. And I think that's where it comes from for me, right? Like, my parents had this membership to the zoo. And every Saturday, we would go so much so that I started getting to know like, who the zookeepers were the people who worked there. And we get to like, watch them feed the whatever, right tigers and lions and bears a lot. Right. So that was that was like the coolest memory I think for me as a kid with my parents. And so being able to hopefully do that one day, I think was a cool thing for me.

Yeah. That's awesome. That's really cool. And yeah, I agree. No, you were the you were one cat short of a menagerie at that point. Now, here's the question I always had with people with with that had that had a number of pets. I pride myself in having fun at naming things. Were you good at naming things? Or was this like Jubilee? slithery?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was the latter. Our dog's name growing up was Zachary. Very like a human name. Right. That's

that's a good one.

But we never call them Zach. Is that they? I don't it was always Zachary. One of my gerbil seems very the fall Yeah, had a gerbil named Shaila and Brownie because it's far was brown. Yep. All right. Well, I think one of my birds names was chirpy direction right like yeah, naming was not something I was great at it just you know, here we are but I made up for it with my two little people I think right like

crush their names. But yeah, growing up not it not it for me.

But shout out to brownie. The rest of rip wrestling power brownie. So when we, when I was listening to you, it's first of all, it's kind of cool that you have this. You wanted to be this by this veterinarian because You do have a sense of care about you, right? You are an educator, and so that it's cool the way some of those little pieces of underlying current still carry into our current day. And that that's beautiful. And you also said that was interesting. I want to go back to now, um, you said that your friends have more most often been associated that you call them your family. Is that if you don't mind me asking, Is that a result of any miscommunications with your folks? Or did what? What role did your parents play in your upbringing and who you are today?

Huge, huge. I am who I am because of my parents. I think my dad instilled this, this message of hard work and empathy and patience, that I have not sometimes done great at, right. Like I'm not, I'm not the most patient person, sometimes I struggle with empathy. I'm carrying, but I struggle, I struggle with that, that next level piece at times. And so my dad, I think has always challenged me or pushed me to do things and be different, in in different ways to really just become better. Where my mom, I think growing up, nurtured who I was, and, and kind of allowed me to utilize my strengths to just be better in that way. So my dad pushed and challenged me we were a mom was like, great, you're like this, you're you're here, go do that go be independent, right? Go be, go hang out with your friends, those sorts of things. So my parents are a huge part of why I am the way I am. I think they also facilitated me creating this family of friends. Right? Growing up as an only child where my my closest half brother to me is 12 years older than I am. Right? So he was out grown married before I even got into like middle school or high school. Um, so my parents were always like, great, we're going on vacation who's coming with us? Right? We're going to the zoo today, who's coming with us? Like, who do you want to invite with you? It was always we want your your people to be our people. And I think even to this day, right as, as my family has grown and changed and morphed, they're still that way. And it's really cool to see, as I've gotten older, this friendship that I started to create with my parents, and how that friendship I think, was forged at such a young age of what they taught me friendship can look like, that's cool. But like, and turning that into what it is today. It's just it's a beautiful kind of full circle piece. But I am who I am today because of of the role my parents played in developing me. Yeah, I don't think I think they saw me for who I was and who I am. I'm not, and pushed me and challenged me and supported me in all the right ways to get to this place of of me.

That's beautiful. That's that sounds like you're very fortunate in that way. Yeah, that's incredible. That's beautiful, man, thanks for telling us about them. I love that. I love that, you know, you're playing some sports, we're hanging out with animals, we got a cool group of friends. Middle school, and high school is often sometimes where we start where we plant the seeds of the stories that we tell ourselves for a long time. And, and I'm wondering, you know, in middle school or high school, did you did you have any thoughts about yourself that potentially you still either hold on to today? Or, you know, like, one thing that you and I will eventually come back to is, is that you and I both struggle with perfectionism. And and we've also, I think, I think we both work at this, but it shows up differently of, you know, when do our walls go up? And who are we who do we try to show people versus what's really going on behind the scenes and whatnot? There are those things that those start in, in high school and middle school or, you know, is there anything from that time that that that you're still working through?

Of course, there are right like I hate to just be like, Well, yeah, I mean, Sheezus High School, who doesn't have shit for middle school and high school that they're like, whoa, that's, I don't even know. Middle School. I'm thinking back I'm like, man, like in middle school. So I think for me, middle school, was the first time in my life I think I was I felt embarrassed to be from where I was from. So growing up in a lower SES area, and, and having parents who I mean, worked their asses off to give me the life that they've given me. I went to a private school. And I think in middle school, right middle schoolers are mean, but the private school I went to was not cheap. Private School is expensive, right? Yeah, I'm in. And so going there, I remember, like asking my mom to drop me off, like further back in the car line, cuz I didn't want people to see me get out of the car that my mom was driving. Yeah. Or being sure that I was always going over to other people's house. And they weren't coming to my house because I didn't want them to see my house. And those sorts of things. And I think a value that I have that my therapist and I have talked a lot through is financial security and financial stability, and creating a life where I feel like I am setting myself up for success, my children up for success. Through finances, right, which I think for a while, I was really embarrassed about that. And have really started to come to terms with what does this mean and look like for me? And what is my relationship with money? And where does this come from? And so that I think is a huge one huge one. For sure. Is, is feeling like I wasn't enough? Yeah. And finances was a very tangible way to show that I wasn't enough. Right. And so when I was shopping for clothes, or whatever it was, right, it would be Well, Mom, I have to go to the store because everyone else has the shoes this backpack, right? You can't have you can't have a Walmart backpack, you got to get the Jansport

comm DLL.

So it's just like so many of those pieces. And I think my parents saw that and understood that in a way of like, okay, if, if we are not going to have this at home, then we at least need to help her feel like she can belong. And it sounds so crazy to think right like that finances or how you dress or how you show up creates this image or this culture of belonging. But I think this is even what we see, in the work that we currently do, right? In conferences in Fraternity and Sorority Life in hell, in just general friendship groups. People do what they have to do to belong to, to fit in. And I think for me that started by things I was embarrassed or ashamed of, in middle school.

Yeah. And financial stuff is fascinating, right. And I love the word that you use. And we've, this is a word that gets thrown around a lot with it. But I don't know, if we know if we actually break it down. It means the relationship that we have with money, because it truly is a relationship. It doesn't just because it's like this tangible thing. And it's here it's not or whatever, like there is the way that we attach our self worth to our actual worth to our net worth. The way that we attach. Like you said, blogging is such a such a powerful, a powerful thing that you know, I'm someone who grew up with more than enough. And, and so it was I don't ever there was never a time where I remember longing for to look a certain way or wear a certain thing, the way that the way I dress down compared to the way I dressed in high school is hysterical. Now like I didn't wear jeans until I went to college because they're like they're itchy. Right. Fucking khakis. There it is. What right like You mean, like, I don't know, we even though we had money we didn't, I didn't necessarily wasn't out there and Jordans and all that kind of stuff. gencos were big back then. Right? And so yeah. Echoes, right, all those kinds of things. So yeah, but that. But it's but it's interesting to think about what is your relationship with money? And how much that steers your fears around? Being able to let go being able to being able to just say, no, let's let's do this thing, we can do this thing and just be able to do it without any. There's so many people that won't book the vacation, because they're like, Well, we're all finances be at that point. Are there people that won't do the thing? And and it is truly a relationship that is ingrained in us. And it's something that we teach our kids about, what what is their relationship with money going to be? And so because we've also seen the opposite end of it to people who are wildly spoiled in their relationship with money where money doesn't matter? It's like, well, I'll just get more of it. Right, like I can spend it on this. And so I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing that today. Just just highlighting that. Yeah. Is that is that?

Good as I would say that's like such an interesting question, right of how, how were the ways in which we were raised the values that were instilled? How are those pieces? Those fears those hopes those dreams? How are those instilled into just who we are today? Right and what are those those carryovers and I'm curious, James, I got to know What does this look like for you? What are some of those things for middle school from high school that have just carried over?

Yeah, for sure. For me, it's a lot of it's mainly self esteem, self esteem stuff and intelligence stuff. I've talked a bunch about my self esteem stuff on here. Where just like in high school, everybody laughed at my jokes. And people wanted to sit next to me in class, and I was pretty smart kid also. And, and so I was a wiseass. Right. So combine all those things with a little bored a little funny, and had an audience away. We go with the witch. And so, but so yeah, so I made people laugh. People. People knew me. I wasn't, I wasn't popular, but I was known. And I do think you're two different things. And, and so. But so then I would come back from the weekends and everybody be like, Oh, we were hanging out or Oh, yeah, we went to this party in the woods, or Oh, yes. So I told people, I was crazy. It was crazy. And I was like, Why? Why don't you invite me? Like we're sitting around, like, I won't do anything. And so it's I started to write the story that I still write today, of people like you when you're around, but they don't think about you and you're not. And that is, it's interesting. I live my life based on what I want to be said in my eulogy, because I want to be memorable. And it's really hard to be forgotten. Even just the other day. Right? We've had we have some, some friends here who we have some friends here who took us out and or no, we had some friends here who I kind of like tried to set up plans with this one group of people. And then all of a sudden, like, I hadn't heard anything. And so I shot a text like, hey, is this happening? And they're like, yeah, it's happening come over. I was like, okay, when they're like, now, we're here. And I was like, my Flickr, I set up these plans. Like, what do you mean, you're hanging out? In frustration? Yeah. And so like, Yeah, well, it's a big thing. And yeah, so I think that and then also, I mean, just to self esteem around the way that I look like, Tina, Tina tries her hardest to convince me that she truly believes that I am hot. And and I love her for that. I just, I'm working on seeing it. And I just don't I mean, sometimes, sometimes the fit is fresh. But I think still knowing what's underneath and being wildly self conscious about it. If you compliment the way that I the way that I dress, I'll accept it. If you compliment the way that I like, look at or whatever, then I'm like, Man, oh, you tell the truth. Now I'm right. And a lot of that stuff is from that that moment, is from those times, see previous comment about never having going on a date or never getting a dry rub in high school.

To the wing, go to the window, the window. Yeah, I think I think it's so interesting and fascinating to have, like, what does? How does that look in our lives today? Right, I think is as I've grown and changed, and so and my life and my family have grown and changed. My partner and I are in this place of what are we doing? And how are we showing up for other people? But also how are other people showing up for us? Like that, friend, friendships change in friendships more often, friendships shift. But it is an interesting place to be in of like, okay, if I if I'm like this person who's facilitating the Hangout, or whatever, right, and then to be like, well come over now you're like, What? What just happened? Like, how am I no longer a part of that conversation? Which I think for me, right? Fear is relevance. Right? When it comes to that, like, I want to be relevant in my friends lives, yes. But what does that relevance even meaner look like for me or for them? And why is relevant, something that I am craving, in these relationships in these pieces? Like that's something that I've been thinking a lot about lately, as our friendship groups and just we, as humans are changing, like, what is the relevancy of friendships or relationships of moments?

You have, it's powerful, my counselor who I fire on a weekly basis. I've had enough of her she was talking to me about the she said, I said, I was telling her I was like, I just really need to stop putting myself worth in other people's control. And she said, James, let me take it one step further for you. I don't want you to she's like, well, I'm going to and she said, she said, James, you put yourself worth in the control of people who don't feel yourself worse. In other words, go bad and I need you to

sum this Some things right? Yes,

no, for sure. She said she said the people who don't make you feel worthy or where you, you let them control yourself where there's plenty of people in your life that make you feel worthy. Why does why doesn't their vote get the same amount of credit? As this other person who does it?

What? Yeah, fire her because

you gotta go Sara's out. I go there. I'm gonna mountain next week, but Sarah's out

there in case you didn't know. Also, please follow me on Instagram. So I can just hire you as mine. Because we got a lot to unpack, Sarah. Yeah. So

yeah, so that was a powerful thing is like it because I haven't thought about in the way that you just put it. And so I also don't appreciate you right now with the relevancy. I mean, look at what we do for a living, right, like I get on stage, and command attention. Right? I commanded attention and not and ideally, it is earned attention, right? Like I have, whoever the client is, has said, Hey, no, you are worthy. And your message is worthy, right? Like, you didn't necessarily book me, you booked my message. And those are, those are two separate things. And, and I see that, but what I do for a living, is I My goal is to be memorable, and to have my words be memorable and to have me be relevant for you. I believe what I'm talking about matters, and it should matter to you that should be relevant to you know, um, and, yeah, it's very interesting to even see what sometimes when I walk on stage, especially right now, when I'm doing a lot of corporate gigs, you know, I don't get people who come up to the stage and rush the stage like they do at a university gig. And I'm like, okay, cool. So I just wasted all these people time, I just helped them check their little professional development box, like what happened here, right. And I can write those stories of like, maybe it wasn't relevant to them. And that that's, that's a longer drive home. Let's drive over.

Yeah, so yeah, yeah. That's those moments too, right. It's like, I have to check myself especially. So I what I speak about, right, I speak about sexual violence and being a survivor of sexual violence and what I believe we can do and what data and scholars and sciences that we can do to prevent these things from happening. I, when I have a moment like that smaller audience, not as much back and forth, right, and friends, if you can't tell, I'm a raging extrovert. So for me, if the audience isn't giving me what they're what I need them to give me, I'm like, Are they getting it? Does this make sense? Is it landing is it sticking, and I write the story, literally, while I'm on stage speaking, I write the story about, well, this isn't good enough. I'm not, it's not what I want it to be right there. They don't care, they're not getting the message. And then for me, that equates to my self worth. Because what I talk about is a part of my identity. And it's just, it's those moments where like, I have to sit down and be like, what I'm doing is worth it. What I'm doing is worthy. And what I'm doing is valuable. It just might take a minute for them to process what that means or looks like for them. But those moments are hard. Yeah, that's what was their heart.

Yeah, cuz it's not the gut instinct, right? That's the one. That's what we got to get to. It's not the first instinct. The first instinct is what has been the narratives that have been passed on since middle school that we're still working through.

Aha, am I off for this? Am I smart enough for this? Am i Does this make sense, right? Or do they infer me right? It's in middle school, it was like, Well, how do I make friends? I want to be friends. I want to belong, I want to fit in. And I still even think when I'm doing that, right. And I'm not getting that feedback. I'm not getting that directs in the moment. Okay, you're picking up what I'm putting down, right? Yeah. And I'm like, well, am I am I speaking their language? Am I relevant? Am I Am I good enough to be doing this with them for them? Right. So do I do I belong here? Yeah. is often the story that is told.

Yeah. And belonging that'll put you right into a dark space real quick, if you want it. Apart. That part? Throw me a rope. I'm down here in my shame hole.

answer's no, because no one's there. Because you know, feel like you belong.

You don't deserve a rope. It's interesting, you know, this, Tina, is that Tina is an Enneagram fiend, and talks a lot about the Enneagram. And for those of you that don't know any gram is essentially like a personality assessment. Maybe you've done like a Myers Briggs or a strengths or a disc, some of those kinds of assessments. But the Enneagram is interesting. It's different than those because it talks about kind of like what are your true motivations, and so therefore, it forms some really interesting conversations and I know that you are a three as an Enneagram, can you tell us because it's also just to prove the Enneagram is worth, you're going to connect the dots really quick between what you were just saying, and what a three is on the Enneagram? Can you talk about a really quick

three, also known as the achiever, the achiever slash the performer is somebody who wants to belong wants to fit in, who will sometimes put on a quote, unquote, a show, in order to get that attention and to belong, and seek that that community right? In, in I'm an Enneagram, three, wing two, which means I'm also the helper right, that Common Core of care that we were talking about earlier, from wanting to be a veterinarian and caring for people, those sorts of things. So, for me, what I do speaking that message like that hope of belonging is I want you to let me in your life in a very vulnerable, real intangible way so that I can impact you. And I can just look at you and be like, How can I show up for you? How can I support you? Right? Like, that is what my best relationships are formed off of. That is what my best best moments are formed off of. Right? And I think that's why I'm, I like to think I'm pretty good at what I do. I'm both in the fraternity Sorority Life space. And as a speaker of I want to help you at the end of the day, it's about how can I help you either deliver this message, create this content, get this this thing to stop? Or to start, right, depending on what we're talking about? If we're talking about community, if we're talking about ending sexual violence, right, whatever it is, how can I help. But in order to do that, that achiever in me that that performer in me, wants to be able to show up and once be able to have those relationships and have that that community in order to do that, and I will almost go at any any lengths that I can, in order to realize the lengths

we will hit all these kinds of

clapping in their braces at some point, right. I will go at whatever whatever length I can get to in order to make that happen. And so I think it's yeah, that's the that's the connection right there is that Enneagram? Three is this performer who shows up? Who wants you to let them in your life to be friends to belong to fit in, but for me with that went to? How can I help? How can I be there for you and support you?

Yeah. Because I can't get over it. And because I like to beat jokes to death. Real geez, move in silence like lengths. That's a little Wayne, if you got the little Wayne quote. anymore. Anyway. So the so it's interesting, because I love it. I am a this is this is why you and I are similar is I'm a two wings three. And, and that that that is very obvious as well. And so. But the interesting thing is, is that a Barney have a moment of honesty, I don't know if I've told you this before, but it's relevant to what we're currently talking about. But for the longest time, I didn't know if I was talking to Barney shade, or if I was talking to who Barney shade wanted me to see. And it took it took me a minute, but it's okay, you know, I got I got I got the hatchet out, we didn't have a chainsaw for that one, we got to how we just slowly slowly chopped at the trade body shade. And it felt like there's a lot of bark. And so a I'm grateful. I'm grateful because not everybody deserves to see us with our walls lowered. And so I'm grateful for that. And I don't I don't take anything. I don't take that for granted. And I will also say this, some of that I know that you have put work on it as well. And knowing that who you are is enough and we don't need the showcase. We just need the shade and love that. Hashtag we love and so, but ultimately, you know, when we put up our walls, when we put up our walls, it is yes to protect ourselves. But sometimes we're also putting up our walls to to protect other people in our eyes from like, well, this is gonna be uncomfortable or you don't need to know that about me or you don't right like our walls are sometimes for everybody. And I'm wondering, as someone who has had their counselor and taught called them out about perfectionism is perfectionism something that you also notice struggle with or is that is that? Is that a piece of who you are?

No, James, I'm perfect. I would you ever think that with my three stuff, right? Yes, of course it is. Yeah. I think perfectionism is it is part of, I would argue perfectionism a part of who all of us are, it just depends on what that relationship with your perfectionism looks like and how to the forefront of your mind of your behavior of your interactions. It is for me, it was such a big part of of my life growing up, I think, right from that financial security piece that I seeked that approval that I seek that belonging that I seek the middle school in high school, even into my professional career of, am I am I good enough to be doing this right that impostor syndrome hit. So the way to combat impostor syndrome is to let the pendulum swing completely in the opposite direction. And instead of asking questions like, Hey, I don't know how to do this, I really would love to learn. I faked it till I make it. And James, as you always like to say, if you always are faking it, do you ever really make it? I will also say though, I think women tend to not fake it enough sometimes. And I'm talking about the context of professionalism. Right? Like, I think women, oftentimes they were like, I have to be overqualified, or I have to get this degree or this title, or this thing, or no this or have this experience, in order to apply for do this, make that happen. Whatever it is, fill in the blank here for the goal you hope to achieve. Women, I think, overestimate what is needed in order to get shit done. Sometimes, because society has told us that we're not enough. And so I think if if women begin to fake it more, maybe we can make it and then look back and reevaluate. Okay, now that I'm here, now that I've made it, what roadmap Can I set that allows other women to genuinely truly be themselves and make it? Sometimes you have to work within the system to change the system? And I think, I don't know that that's what I did. But I do think that I don't know that I would have gone back and changed it. Because for me the lessons I've learned the person I am today. Yeah, there was a fake a fake facade of this house is perfect. Keep it moving. The lawn is manicured, right. But inside, it's burning. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to how to show up. I don't know who I need to be in order to feel like I belong, I fit in. So I'm going to perform, I'm going to be this achiever. But then I got to this place of like feeling confident and capable. I think I've always felt confident. I don't know that I felt capable. So now that I'm in a place of feeling confident and capable now it's like, okay, let's, let's reevaluate who I'm showing up as, and am I showing up as this facade of the perfect house? Or am I letting people see that inside, it's burning? And hey, hand me a bucket of water, if you don't mind. And maybe while you hand me that bucket of water, I can have a conversation with you, that allows me in and allows you in to just be people together. So yeah, perfectionism is a huge part of it, to answer your question.

First of all, it was beautifully said, I appreciate your vulnerability during the ironic question about perfectionism. Good a place places any Right. Right? Yeah, no. And, yeah, I love it. I see it, I think, you know, there are times where fake it till you make it does make sense. And but at the end of the day, it's about it's about how long we fake it and why we continue to fake it. Or we continue to fake it because of imposter syndrome. Because we don't think we've made it even though we have. And we've convinced ourselves that we don't belong, or we're not good enough, smart enough. And you're funny enough, whatever enough, competent enough, capable enough. And, you know, are those what are those stories that we're writing ourselves and as you mentioned, and so beautifully articulated? Women are made to write those stories longer. And, and that's, that's some good old fashioned sexism, right, like research shows, research shows that, you know, the amount of bullet points that a man has done on a job description versus the amount of bullet points a woman has done on that job description. Whether or not they apply, right, the woman has had to do at least 80% or something like that, where the man will apply it. 30% right. And it's, yeah, it is. It is fascinating. We're all going through shit. We all got our own lives. We're all trying Make a roll trying to figure it out. And so if you got to do it, if you got to do it to, to get through the day, then that's okay. Right, you got the stories we tell ourselves, sometimes those stories enable us to get up and enable us to push through. And we got to we got to figure out a way to get through every single day. And so if we need to fake it a little bit, then I get it, we need to tell ourselves that lie, tell us a story. I get it. And so I hope I know you know this, but I'm gonna say it out loud anyway. Like, I did not bring this up, to be honest talking about your shame. All right, it's no, it's more about your survival tactics, right? Because like, we got to figure it out in this world. And, and so I appreciate you talking to us about what you felt you needed to do at whatever time of your life given the information that you had, and the lived experience, you also went through to do what didn't make the decision you needed to make now, and we don't often give ourselves enough credit in those moments. Worse than that, we often don't give other people enough credit. They're just trying to figure it out. They're just try, they're doing the best with what they can and what they've been through to make to get through the day. And it's also we know this, it is easier to judge people who are going through what we are going through than it sometimes is to judge people who are going through something that we have no idea what it's like, because it's close to us. So we judge them. Yeah. And so that's probably why it was easier for me to be able to spot your walls. Right. I teach I teach what I need to hear. And, you know, I went through a whole divorce with with with a woman who deserved more and deserved more vulnerability and authenticity than I went through that divorce while I wrote this book behind me leading imperfectly I'm authenticity and vulnerability. Right. And so yeah, it is. Yeah, so I don't know. I appreciate what you said it obviously sparked something in me because I got on a damn soapbox. But we love

the soapbox. soapbox. Like right and all this is just it's it's so impactful to process and think about to write because I think some of that you said that now I'm like, oh, shit this another kind of full circle moment. Right? Is this piece of we don't give other people enough credit. Right? I think for so long. My fake it till you make it was because I thought other people were asking me questions because they wanted to see those pitfalls. They wanted to see those shame holes were really they just were asking because they actually genuinely gave a shit. Right? And they wanted to know, and they were curious. And they were hoping that I would be vulnerable. But instead of being vulnerable, like, Oh, I'm fine. It's great. Everything's fine. It's cool. It's perfect. Right, but because of who I am and how I was raised, and and those values that were just instilled in me at an early age, it's like, I didn't feel like I could let people see those. So maybe the giving other people more credit is don't make assumptions. Don't assume mal intent, right? You can't assume mal intent when it comes to people in your life to friendships or relationships. I think there's so much more there than just people asking you questions for the sake of asking questions. Are the people who you call friends, the people who you call partner, the people you call mom, dad? Whatever it is, right? They genuinely care, allow them to care. And maybe that's just part of letting your walls down and in a different way.

I don't know, sometimes when people are asking us questions. Sometimes when people are asking us questions, we need to think of that. Or they ask us this question because they want to feel a little less crazy. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like, am I am I alone? Am I alone in this? Is it just me? times where, where our pride puffs up where our perfectionism puffs? Where it's like, no, we're good. And then we don't know the impact that sometimes we do make that person feel like fuck, that is just me them. Right? And I think one area where I think we can both talk a little bit about this as in parenting, right? And in whatever, whatever your process was with motherhood, my process of fatherhood, you know, I beat myself up a lot as a new dad, because I didn't immediately fall in love with my son. And yes, I knew all the research that told me I wouldn't I mean, the volume level there with the high probability of me not falling in love with my son. But there's also a high probability of me being like, Yeah, but I'm different. Okay. You don't know me research. Right? Like, I'm a sensitive guy. Okay. Good dad my whole life.

I gotta be perfect at this. Yeah.

And then when I wasn't, I was like, Oh, well, I'm a real piece of shit. And you know, that story that I write and, you know, we just expect our bodies to be able to do whatever our bodies are supposed to do or whatever, right? Did you have some of that with with motherhood as well?

Who did I ever? So I don't know if you know this me might, I've never wanted to be a mom. Being a parent was not something I saw in my future for a very long time. And then I met a person who wanted to be a dad who wanted to be a parent. And I started asking myself, well, what would it what would it take for me to want to be a parent? I don't That's a weird question for me to ask myself, but right self, what do I need to accomplish, do achieve in order for me to feel okay, because I know that children, I knew children were going to change things. I knew children were going to change the way that I live showed up those sorts of things. What I didn't expect is for children to change me. And they have drastically changed me. But I think for me, right becoming a parents, it wasn't natural. It wasn't something that I just had this innate desire, like, I'm gonna be a mom one day, right? I think some women have that some humans have this like, Oh, I'm definitely gonna be a dad one day, right? I'm definitely going to, I want to be a parent. For me, it was always like, Yeah, I'm good. I'm okay. And so I think for me, the biggest piece was getting pregnant and having a miscarriage. That was the moment where I was like, Oh, shit, I think I want this more than what I ever thought I would want this. Yeah. Because it was there. And then it wasn't. And then for me the shame hole of oh my god, I'm failing at this, right? I'm not, I'm not accomplishing my body's not doing what it should be doing. And just what that meant, and looks like for me, and also just trying to process to my my identity of being a victim survivor of sexual violence, with that, of what that meant for me of so many pieces of how that showed up in pregnancy and motherhood and in different pieces, right. But motherhood was, was never something that was just gonna happen. For me, it took a lot for me to say like, Okay, I'm ready to be a mom, I want to be a mom, I want this thing. And the process of of raising now two little people has just, it's changed who I am. And I don't think I was ready for that at first. So it's interesting. Yeah.

Interesting is the longest word that means nothing in our language. Like, interesting is always a five. Right? Jim? It's a five, which is great, because I hear I hear you with that word in this in this instinct instance to me, you know, for myself, like yes, I am falling more in love with Rome. And and he's, he's a cool dude, which is great the warranties up and so he's ours. So do not do not return to sender committed works. So the so it has it has been interesting of justice as as someone who is driven as someone who has goals as someone who wants to chase legacy as someone who wants everybody to like him as someone who wants to, I don't know, love the shit out of my partner and carry all of her weight, right? Like all that kind of stuff. Like turns out, you can't do it all but but I'm still out here trying and, and a lot of people are missing out because I'm still trying. And right if there's, there's times where I can, I can be more present with Tina. And just be more open with her of just like, hey, here's, here's what I think I need right now instead of tell me what you need, and I'm gonna figure out how to all make work. That's what my whole motto is. I'm gonna make it I'm gonna figure it out. Right? I'm gonna get the pieces together these these puzzle pieces. I don't care if they're from different puzzles, they don't fit, okay. And I'm and but sometimes you're just trying to do the most. And you don't need the most your family doesn't need you to do the most. But whatever inside of me is like, that's what we do. We do the most. For the most amount of people we can and it is impacting my relationship and is in a powerful way where Tina and I have to sit down and have conversations about like, okay, let's talk about how you tried to do the most and it didn't work out or let's talk about how you want to try to figure this out. And let's see if we can come up with something together as opposed to you trying to do it in silent and then be like, I've got it solution, right? Which is really

leading them in the conversation to make a decision. Right? Like, I think for me, it's been so crazy and wild just coming off of April, which for me is my busiest month of traveling of speaking. And by the way, so I have this other job, right like at UNC Charlotte that I enjoy. And it's just, it's crazy coming off that month and figuring out like, Okay, I've made all these decisions to do to go to figure it out to put the puzzle pieces together in the way that I thought made sense for the puzzle pieces to go together. And then realize that my partner has no direct say, really, in my final decision, but whatever I decide directly impacts him directly. And it's like, that moment that I realized that I was like, Oh, shit, like, I'm an asshole. Like, am I like, am I the worst? Like, what is going on? Right? Because I think for me, it was like, Well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna figure it out. And right, it's, I'm gonna figure it out, I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna put these puzzle pieces together. But at what cost? If there's no point in putting the puzzle pieces together, if the picture on the front of this beautiful puzzle is distorted and ruined. So like, how are we ensuring that we keep the picture together, and that image together, and each other together, while we figure it out? Put these puzzle pieces back in? Because that's been I agree with you. That's been one of the hardest pieces of it all, is figuring out what do we need to do to make this work, but also, to make this work right to make this relationship work to make parenting work? And sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it falls short, sometimes it it gets messy, and it gets ugly. And I make assumptions, right? I write the story in my brain of Well, this must be how he feels or this will be how they feel or what about how I feel.

Or this is how it ends.

Me Back in the shameful Yeah, I think it's it's, it really is the best and the worst thing I've ever done, right is Chase legacy, as you said, and to be on the go and be building this thing. while also raising a family. Yeah, and wanting to show up for my partner and love my partner because he's the shit and I, and I can't do life without him. I don't want to do life without him. Right. So this is it's the best and the hardest thing ever. Surely. Yeah.

Something you said about your dad struck me back in the beginning of this show, where you said that he was someone who had, who was extremely hard worker. And he was someone that was very patient. And it sounds to me, like, like, you got one of those? Yeah. Right. And yeah, and so like, but so it's very interesting, like I admire, I admire your dad, because I think those are two things that are hard, seemingly hard to hold at the same time. Right? Because what I'm hearing you say is that I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go hard when it's time to work, I'm a busted, but I'm also going to leave a little bit of space for whatever needs to happen and for the unknown, or for grace, or for whatever it is, you know, I don't know what his patients motto was. But that's a really impressive thing to have gotten to watch and learn from. And and now try to figure out how to practice like, what is patience of self look like? What is patience of my partner, as my partner is allowed to emote the way you know, they want they feel that they're feeling and my baby's allowed to cry doesn't mean I suck. My whatever is allowed. Like I'm allowed to say no to this gig. This is me saying this out loud. Even though I don't say this ever be allowed to say one of this gig. It doesn't mean no client will ever book me again. Right? Or they'll never book me again. Are they? I'm letting them down. Right? Me saying no, because my family needs me. Or because my partner needs me or just because it's time to say no, sometimes doesn't mean that I'm letting other people down. And that's a really hard pill for me to swallow. And so yeah, that patients be struck me when you were describing your dad, and as I hear you talk right now about what you're trying to work on.

Yeah, I'm not a patient person. My dad told me I remember this so vividly. He told me. Lucy, who's my oldest, she's two and a half almost will be three in September. At her baby shower, my dad pulled me aside and was like, I am going to pray that you have patients like that is my hope for you. Right like that is is what But I hope that you begin to grow and develop and figure out as a parent is patience. And I look yeah, okay, that thanks, appreciate it. Love you, right like, and I just kind of very flippantly it was like, Okay, that's cool. Appreciate you, right? I'm gonna go back to the baby shower now. But that moment, right where my dad just grabbed me on the shoulder and was like, Barney, I really pray for patients. Right for You. It has been, I think I am better at showing other people patients than myself. Patients are grace. Right? I often think about what would it look like if I showed myself the same patience and grace as I showed my two and a half year old when she had an accident on the floor this morning, cuz she couldn't make it to the body, right? Like, whatever it is. That Well, I'm just like, you just peed on the floor tight. Great. Okay, right. Where it's, it's these pieces in these moments of like, how am I allowing space for myself for that, and I don't. And I think it's because of that perfectionism and that imposter syndrome of, I'm not going to do it if I don't think I'm going to be great at it, which maybe is also why I didn't want to be a mom. At first right? Of, I didn't know what motherhood was going to look like, for me. I didn't know what getting pregnant was going to look like for me. I didn't know what how my world was going to shift or change being a mom. And that scared me that fear of the unknown. And that possibility of failure, even though in my brain because I'm a perfectionist, I'm like, I ain't gonna fail. Like, that's not gonna happen. Those pieces, right, like, that is, again, it's I guess it's the best, the hardest thing I've ever done. But that patience is something I still have to work on. And I still have to figure out, but I'm so grateful that my dad just pulled me aside and was like, I'm gonna pray for patients for you. Yeah. Because it's, it's not something that everybody has. Everybody has patients. The hanging out with kids. Shit, that'll change. Pretty quick. Hopefully

she'll find one of the other real quick. Patience or hardship is what you're finding.

Sometimes you won't catch both.

It's just Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to practice patience, when we're still sometimes holding on to perfectionism. How can I be perfectly patient is not a sentence. And so yeah, Bonnie, I love your self awareness, we do not even get into what you talk to this world about. And so let me just briefly say thank you, for the work that you do in this world, educating so many about sexual violence, and giving people the tools to advocate for themselves giving people the tools to make sure that the people around them are being better human beings. And setting up the spaces where safety is at a paramount and, and just thank you for the courage that you exhibit every time you step on that stage to share your story. And, and thank you for I mean, even the courage that you just had with me here in the diner today over some blueberry pancakes. Talking about from the wing go

to the lousy wings.

So I'll see when I respect the hell out of you Barney shade, and I'm grateful that you're in my life and I'm grateful that you're in the game of the diner today.

I appreciate you. Happy to be here friend. Thanks for having me. Oh, yeah,

Bonnie, let people know where they can find you Where Where can we connect with Bonnie shade in this world?

We love it friends on all social media outlets and yes, I am on Tik Tok not super active. A little bit at Bonnie shade BB It's Bonnie with a Why don't get it twisted, B O n n y shade BB on all social media outlets. My website Bonnie shade.com. And my email address Bonnie at Bonnie shade speaks that calm any of those work for me. Slide in the DMS though that's probably the easiest to make it

in the DMS y'all. Bonnie, thank you so much for coming in the diner. I appreciate you my friend.

Always good to be here. Oh, yes. Hell yeah.

Y'all. That was my time with Bonny Shade. What an incredible woman we talked about patience. today. We talked about perfectionism. We talked about shame holes, because that's where I live. No. No, it was just so incredible to hear how she is working on giving yourself grace. And it is a work in progress. It is a work in progress to let ourselves know that whatever we went through in our lives is allowed to still impact us. But we are in control of how much time how much weight and how much credibility we give to it in our current situation and and it is just special to get to spend that kind of time with you all with a great friend of mine Bonny Shade. And until next time y'all do me a favor and keep punching small talk in the face by asking better questions. Take care.