Improve Business Relationships: Effective Email Marketing with Justin Keltner

I've worked with a lot of people where we've been able to create partnerships that were, you know, for larger organizations where my incentive was mainly based on profit share. So like finding partnership and a creative way to even deliver your services. I also have people that come and speak at, at my events and at my masterminds and other things that I put together, that have much more expertise in certain areas like copywriting than maybe I do, I'm good at a few things, I'm really good at technology, I'm pretty good at strategy. I'm amazing at deliverability. But I'm not good at everything. So finding people to really fill in those gaps, I think is essential, because it allows you to be amazing at what you do, and not just mediocre at a lot of things in business. And frankly, it lets you scale a lot quicker to and reach the personal goals that you have. And really realize the goals that you created. Why for having a business in the first place.

Hello, everybody. And welcome back to the creative collaboration show Chuck Anderson here, I'm your host today. And this is going to be a really important episode for those of you who use email in your business, which should be 100% of you, right? And you hear all the things about this recommendation or that recommendation, sometimes email marketing is dead, or, you know, open rates don't work. And you do hear all the different things about email marketing, and whether or not you should be using it in your business. And, you know, I It's an absolute necessity. And that's why we wanted to bring in an expert to talk about that today. So I have with me, Justin Keltner. With me here today. Justin, welcome to the

show. Thanks for having me. It's really great to be here, Chuck.

Awesome. Well, great to have you here as well. And I know in our initial conversation, I mean, we we had a in depth conversation about email. And you know, back in the day, I used to manage a list of 2 million people. But you know, that was that was a while ago, and a lot has changed. But some things have not changed. And, and I think if there's one thing that's a constant is that email is a necessity when it comes to marketing in our business. And that's why I wanted to have you on here to talk about that here today. So I think a great place to start Justin is, you know, introduce yourself a little bit about you know, who you are, and, and specifically what you do, and who you help, and we'll

go from there. Sounds great. So without diving too deep into the origin story here, because it's really about the listeners and, and the challenges that they're going through and how we can solve them. What I will say is that my work with a lot of high impact and high ticket coaches has led me into this world of email marketing and email deliverability, I used to be kind of the Swiss Army knife of digital marketing for a lot of different types of coaches and consultants with large lists. And that's when I discovered just how important email marketing was. And that most of these coaches and consultants were making a ton of mistakes when it came to their email. And all of those mistakes were, frankly, just super, super, super preventable. They were doing things that kept their emails from going into inboxes. They got them landed in spam folders and promotions folders that really hurt their domain reputation. And it's because honestly, like those coaches were really good coaches, but they never went to Email Marketing School, which, of course, they wouldn't, you know, they they would learn their craft get better at that. But you can't always be the expert in everything in your business. And, and that's kind of how I get got involved because they hired me to build systems and funnels and, and eventually that transitioned into email. And yeah, that's when I started just discovering a lot of these a lot of these tricks and secrets, if you will, of how to stay in the inbox and, and how to write email that's actually engaging, and that actually sells your services.

I love how you put that the Swiss Army knife of digital marketing and I think so many of us start off that way and then eventually have to choose a specialty. What was it about email marketing? Like what caused that to be your specialty?

So I think, number one, the clientele that I was working with, they were already big emailers they had large email lists ranging anywhere from a few 1000 people up to a couple 100,000 people. And it was something that they were already doing, but in most cases they weren't doing it anywhere nearly as as well as they could have been doing it. And all of the campaigns that we created all the funnels that we created all of the follow up revolved at its core around email. So that was always kind of the the centerpiece if you will and It also is, frankly, the most effective and most cost effective way to sell. If you've got an email list, even if it's only a few 1000 people or even several 100 people, if you're not doing the right steps, if you're not taking the right steps to market to your list, and you just think, you know, I'm going to spend more money on Facebook ads, well, guess what, your funnel or your your bucket just has a bunch of holes in it. And all those leads that you're putting in at the top are just dripping through email is the way and proper email marketing is the way to patch those holes in your bucket so that whenever new leads come from anywhere else, they get nurtured effectively through email. So it's kind of a catch all in a lot of ways. And it's one of those, it's one of those things that if you get email, right, everything else will work much better in your business, it just has such a, such a good force multiplier effect on everything else that you would do in your business. I love that,

you know me, one of the things that I just thought about while you were describing all of that is, you know, some of the coaches that I work with, I noticed that a lot of them. I mean, they know email marketing is a necessity, they know it's probably their number one channel, although proportionately they probably spend a lot more time on social media, then, then email and email kind of like an afterthought. And I'll give you an example. I hear it all the time from one client. It's like, oh, man, I gotta email my list this week, you know, what should I send them? And it's like, you don't have a plan. Right? And so, so I wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, first of all, I think the necessity of email marketing and, and a little bit about what I just mentioned, because it seems like for some people, it's like, they know they should be doing it. But it's kind of like this afterthought, or it's like our reaction to I should send out an email. So I'm going to send something.

So I'll answer that from, from a 50,000 foot view. And then also, if if you'd like, I'm happy to give some examples of how to get creative with that, and how to actually map out a strategy in 90 seconds or less, because it's good. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not as complicated as people think. So, yes, most people Chuck are flying completely blind. When it comes to email marketing. They don't have anything planned out. They have an event coming up the day before. They're like, Oh, no, what are we? What are we gonna email to our list, we have email something it's like, first of all, I think, perspective ship that gets to happen even before that is that, it's not that you have to email your list, it's that you get to email your list. I think that's very important. And a lot of a lot of the time people come to me for support with their technology and their systems and everything. But really, what's stopping them in many ways is their mindset. So immediately off the bat, if they're saying, I have to email my list, what am I gonna do? It's like, no, hold on, you have an email list of 50,000 people, you get to email those people, not everybody, you know, every Tom Dick and Harry has an email list like, it's this is a real audience of 50,000 people that are listening to your every word. Granted, in some cases, it might be more engaged of a list than others. But you have that gift, right? Like you have that gift. And, like Uncle Ben says, With great power comes great responsibility. So you want to be responsible for how you communicate with your list. Because most people treat their list frankly, like, like, they're just shouting to 1000s of 1000s of people in a room. Or like, they need to send out this corporate sounding cookie cutter marketing message, to sound a certain way and to look a certain way. And the reality of it is if you've got even 10,000 people on your list, the most effective way to think about it is that you're sending one on one messages in in bulk at scale, but you're sending one on one communication to each of those 10,000 people. So back to the original question, because I think that mindset shift kind of sets the precedent here for how we look at the strategy. So you shift your mindset you realize there's a really one on one conversations you're having. And the way that you get people to buy your stuff is by actually having a conversation with them. actually engaging them actually inspiring them and actually connecting with them. So stepping back and now looking at strategy. The way that I like to do it, here's kind of the strategy. The easy button for the strategy here is I love to look at email as a complement to your event funnel. An event can mean many things it can mean a webinar you're doing it can mean live a virtual paid program, it can mean a course whatever it is that you have as an event as a thing. The reason why that's so important is because events have a lot of very positive influential principles in them. One of them obviously scared study because even on an online event, it's not unlimited. It can be, but most of the time, you're limited by zoom or whatever other platform you're using to 100 people or so. And of course, if you're doing a group training program, you could only be actually coaching a certain number of people, maybe it's 510 20, whatever that number is for you. But events are amazing, because you've got that scarcity. And then you also have community built into it. Even if it's just getting 50 or 60 people to join you on a webinar. There's people in the chat saying whether from responding to different topics or different prompts, so you're really creating community there. Now, you've got those events. So let's say that you have maybe a webinar once a month that you do, let's just take that as a base strategy. Now, you know, that the week before that webinar, you probably want to be giving away some pieces of content. Ideally, take the webinar, if if it's the same every month, you might want to get a little bit creative and create different spins on it. But take that webinar, take the core concepts, break them apart, create, for example, a video series, this is one of the things that I that I teach in my done with you email marketing program, which we're launching a cohort of here very shortly. And we create a video series based off of those components. So you send those videos one by one, let's say there's four or five videos. And after each of the videos, maybe you can have a homework assignment. And on some of the pieces in those video delivery emails, you can have a link to register for your webinar as well. Or you can share that registration page after they fill out the assignment. Now you're engaging people, you're getting them to actually take action and do homework, which sounds like it's work. But guess what you're allowing your your most interested potential buyers to self select. Not only that, but they're also giving you the key words that they're using, about the struggles of the problems that you coach them through. By answering those those questions. And those prompts are you're priming the pump. And you're giving value. And it's instead of just taking and taking and asking for a register for this, sign up for this pay me money, sign up for my course get on a call, you're delivering value in advance. So assuming that you're blocking out most of your month to send email at least once every other day or once every third day, I would do that really at a minimum, you've got pretty much your week or so maybe even week and a half before the webinar, then you have the webinar, then you have follow up for the webinar, which might be talking about the next one if they missed it, or an encore or a replay. And what are you selling from the webinar, there's probably an upsell there. So you get to talk about that. Also, there's almost two weeks month of content right there. So the key is, and I think you can use this a lot of different ways you can use it if you're doing webinars if you're not doing webinars, but the key is to find something ideally, that's that's a community driven type of event or other similar thing that has a timeline to it, and use that to hang other things onto. Because every time you funnel people into that, now you're getting another force multiplier effect from that event, which is going to make it much easier to generate sales versus just pitching your list directly. So that's one of the strategies that I like to use.

Well, I like what you started with there. And that is like a week before the webinar or whatever it is that you're promoting, send some other valuable content. And this is something that I see that doesn't happen, probably enough, where a lot of people, they're only emailing their lists, when they have an ask. So sign up for my webinar, or book a free consultation, or, you know, whatever, you know, download my book, or buy my book or whatever it is right. And, you know, really missing out on that key relationship building content, that value building content that's in between. And so that leads me to my next question. And maybe you can even add to what I just said, but what are some of the mistakes that you see people making with their email marketing, that's, that's really contributing to a lousy result.

So there's so many things, I think one one is, like you just mentioned, the most common mistake is just asking, instead of instead of giving, so you're always trying to, so it really asking is okay, like you should ask people for responses and for things, but it's, it's the taking, really, if we're getting specific, it's the taking versus the giving. You always want to try to go for a ratio of about 80% content and giving to like 20% promotion and asking, and most people have that flipped around or worse. So to give you an example, let's say that you called up your best friend and you said, Hey, Joe, I need to borrow your car for the weekend. My car's in the shop. Okay, great. He loves your car. Then the next weekend, you call him back and you say can you watch my dog for a few days? We're going to Tahoe and I don't I don't have anyone to watch my dog. Okay, cool. Oh, Is your dog, your dog, Chuck fine. And the next week, you know, it's just another favor and another favor and another favor. And it would be absolutely insane. If you expected that you could do that in a human relationship, a human interaction, and not completely destroy that friendship, destroy that relationship. Even business relationships, same thing, if you were talking a little bit earlier about partnerships, if you have a partnership, and it's totally one sided, and you're just doing all the all the taking, of course, that partner is not going to want to work with you for very long. So why do people think that that's acceptable with their email marketing?

Yeah, it's interesting, because, and, to your point, it is taking, like, I want you to come to my webinar, why? So I can sell you something, right. And that's really what we want to do. But not really thinking a whole lot of, you know, what am I giving? You know, what am I giving? And, you know, this is something that I think does take a little bit of planning, and especially what we were talking about earlier is, you know, not sort of reacting like, Oh, my God, I haven't emailed my list for a while, I'm going to send them something, but actually have a plan of why are they there? And what kind of content and what kind of things? Do they even want to learn from you? Right? And so what do you say to the person who is kind of in that reactionary mode? And, you know, I, because I, for me, I we have an email plan we do we try to plan it out months in advance, even like the whole year in advance, but, you know, what are your tips there for anyone who's approaching their email marketing, or wants to get it on a track where it's, they're not reacting to it anymore, but they're doing it very purposefully.

So it is plan, it's definitely planning things in advance based on those events. I think that's that's one point. The other thing that you were asking about mistakes earlier, I would create a checklist and the checklist does definitely depend on on the person or the business sending the email out. But there's a lot of standard things. So one of the things you want to look out for for sure, is not sending too much to third party sites. So that could be like a Facebook or YouTube or even LinkedIn. The problem with those social media platforms is that a lot of the time they actually can be blacklisted, and you wouldn't even know it. And so if you send to a post on LinkedIn, but another post on LinkedIn, was caused the site to even be temporarily blacklisted for some reason, or you send to a domain of a joint venture partner. And they're a known spammer or Google thinks that their spam or whatever, whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter because their domains blacklisted, what happens is that reputation gets translated onto you. And so making a checklist and not doing those things, ideally, if you've got a video embedded on your site, so that the majority of traffic that you're sending from email goes to your website, which also ideally is the same as the domain in your from address that you're sending from. So having checklists like that, having the strategy planned out for sure is is a big deal. And when you do that, you can also you can also look at the ratio of content, and giving to taking and promotions, and make sure that that's balance, making sure that you're nurturing relationships, because people think, oh, I can fix my email deliverability by hiring someone like Justin, which they absolutely can, the challenge is 20% of the work maybe comes in what we actually do and hitting the hammer on the right nails, on the tech pieces, and the authentication and different things like that, that I won't go too too deep into, because I could geek out about that for hours. I'm a recovering software engineer. So I know how all those things work behind the scenes. But 80% of the work is really the way that you approach email, and giving value nurturing your lists, so planning to do that. Then the other thing that I would say that's that's really important, is making sure that you're cleaning your list on a regular basis. So if you're sending amazing emails, but only point 4% of people are actually clicking on those emails, it doesn't matter. It's like if a forest falls, or if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody's there to hear it, like did it really fall? Or did it make a noise? I mean, I guess it did, but nobody hears the noise, what's the effect? Net nuttin. So by fixing your deliverability, you can actually get people listening to you and you can make the impact you want to make and make the money you want to make. And one of the keys there is maintaining proper hygiene and if somebody hasn't opened your email in 30 to 60 days, and you're sending regularly, then you know, that person probably needs to be put into a reengagement campaign and if they don't reengage from that campaign, most likely they don't belong on your list anymore.

I like how you said like wanting to kind of like take the tech simple and you know from a high level, you know, get the asked this question all the time is like is the app that I'm using to send emails contributing to my result, and, you know, very popular not to pick on MailChimp at all. But I mean, a lot of people go there, because it's free. Initially, if you want to do some other stuff with it, it's not free. But a lot of people consider it to be a free app, there's a lot of other low cost apps as well. What would you what would you say to the person who's either invested in an app or using the app? Like, is there a wrong app to use? And does it hurt? Or help them by making a better choice? With what they're using for CRM or mailing app?

That's a really great question. And I get asked that a lot to like, Justin, what system should I be using? Do I need to switch off of active campaign and go to another one? It's like, most of the time, the answer is no. And if you're using a system, it does what you need it to do, it functions, it gives you the reports that you need. Most of the time, you probably should stick with that unless there's some overwhelming reason to change. Because changing an email marketing system like that, is like taking an engine and putting it in a different car. You can do it. But there's a lot of pieces that some people don't even realize and forms that we have, and affiliate links and everything else on the back end that are going to break. And that's potentially depending on how big your business is, how big your list is, how many connected pieces you have, and integrations and things that may be a bigger pain than the result that would actually help you create. There are some cases to do that. But there's a very common myth, like you said that the email marketing platform we use determines how much our email actually goes into the inbox. And it does, but to a very, very, very small extent, like maybe one to 5% is the actual platform. Now with that said, One thing to note is that platforms will actually typically choose the server that they're using to send your email out. Based on certain factors, a lot of those factors have to do with how engaged your audiences and your domain reputation and things like that. So if you're sending to a bunch of people that aren't engaging, either, they're going to find segments of your list to send on much lower response or lower quality servers, which are not ranked as high as far as the server IP compared to other servers they might have. They're not as pristine, right there with other people that have lower rankings other other segments of context. Or, conversely, if you're sending out to only an engaged list, they may actually level you up and start sending your emails from a better server. So it's a lot less the platform itself. And it's more your behavior on that platform. And every platform, whether it's Infusionsoft slosh, keep, or whether it's active campaign, or whether it's MailChimp, they do typically have postmasters that are there to ensure the health of everybody's email list and everybody's deliverability. So if you're a bad actor, even if you don't know you are, and I know a lot of people will get those emails saying, Hey, you're, you're a bad sender, you know, you're sending too much to unengaged people. Well, it's, it's your email list. So whether you like it or not, whether you're trained in or not, at some level, you need to take responsibility for that and start improving your behavior. And then you're going to start to see better results.

I love that answer for so many reasons. But I think to sum up what I really heard, it's really more about your behavior as the list owner and the one the what you're sending out, that's going to be your biggest contributing factors to your success. It's not really about this tool, or that tool or, you know, the, or the tech so much. I mean, there's, there's pros and cons to all of them. But it's really about like, how well are you maintaining your list? And what kind of quality content and the engagement you're getting from? From your list? And you will you'll get the emails from people from some of these providers, if you're abusing it at all, you'll definitely I know I've innocently it's like I did nothing wrong. But you know, when you really think about it, it's like, okay, I got it. Yeah, yeah. So I think most people can admit it. So I love everything you just said and hopefully everyone listening in right now, I mean, you know, is encouraged to take a deeper look at their email marketing and not just treat it as a, you know, yeah, I'm gonna send out an email today to all you know, to 1000 people or 10,000 people or 50,000 people it's like, but to actually have a plan. And, you know, with some of the things that you've talked about, look, we were not all email marketing experts, and it makes sense to talk to one or to collaborate with one and so one of the reasons I invited you here because you We're all about collaborations and partnerships and move away from that whole idea of being a solopreneur. And doing everything ourselves and trying to figuring out everything that we're doing by trial and error. But rather than, like, if you're going to, if you're going to do something in your business, you're better off to get, like professional advice from someone who does it every day. And, and so I see you as a great person to collaborate with, but and that's the theme, obviously. And so I encourage our audience to reach out to as well if you have questions about email marketing, if you or if you want to improve what you're doing, then Justin is a great resource to connect with. And we're going to let I'll ask you about it here in a moment, but I'm gonna, we'll link to some of your resources just beneath this video. And on the podcast, it'll be there in the show notes as well. But I want to ask you, just on that theme of collaboration, I mean, how do you how has collaborations and partnerships played a role in your business? Or do you do everything yourself?

I used to be that that lone wolf that that solopreneur that literally needed to do everything by myself, because I was afraid of other people messing it up or making you look bad, or, or whatever else, right? I have since started, started to embrace both partnerships. And also team, like, I currently don't have any full time staff, but I have a part time team that I'm building and, and as we scale things up, those people might come on board for more and more time. But the challenge with trying to do everything on your own is that you're only innately good at so many things. And people unfortunately, instead of playing to their strengths, they try to build upon their weaknesses, and say, you know, like, I'm not really great with technology, for example. So I'm gonna go and read all the books on WordPress, and figure out how to do it when you could go on Upwork and find someone that probably can solve your problem for 10 to $15 an hour, you know, with websites, or with podcasting, I mean, I was also trying to edit all my own episodes for my show. And I realized, okay, maybe this isn't smart. So I got at least a video editor that could that could support. You could only be the best out of few things, even if you can understand at a surface level, many, many things. But the real money and the real success. And I think I mean, at least for me, the most fulfillment has come from getting very, very, very good at a small number of things, and then finding other people that were much better than me. So with regards to partnerships, we actually met through through JV mm, which is a group specifically for partnerships. And we're looking at exploring different ways that we can help each other in business. I've worked with a lot of people where we've been able to create partnerships that were, you know, for larger organizations where my incentive was mainly based on profit share. So like finding partnerships in a creative way to even deliver your services. I also have people that come and speak at my events and at my masterminds and other things that I put together, that have much more expertise in certain areas, like copywriting that maybe I do, I'm good at a few things, I'm really good at technology, I'm pretty good at strategy. I'm amazing at deliverability. But I'm not good at everything. So finding people to really fill in those gaps, I think is essential, because it allows you to be amazing at what you do and not just mediocre at a lot of things in business. And frankly, it lets you scale a lot quicker to and reach the personal goals that you have. And really realize the goals that you created. Why for having a business in the first place. Hmm, that is

such a brilliant answer that I'm gonna have to take that as a soundbite and feature it somewhere. Because that was just so beautifully said. And I asked that question of everybody. I mean, this is where like 70 Plus episodes into this thing. Super well answered. And you even gave references to where you can actually find people to collaborate with and that's, you know, like you mentioned JV Mmm, it's great to like we're all very partnership minded and collaboration minded. Like we've all recognized that none of us really does this on an on their own. And I, I you know, the you mentioned the lone wolf thing. I like to refer to myself as a recovering do it yourselfer. I still have the tendencies. And I have the technical background. So I can go down the rabbit hole really, really easily. But I do catch myself and I'm like, is this really time well spent? Or could somebody else do this for me and the fraction of the time and the fraction of the cost? So I literally love that answer. So we're almost running out of time here. But I wanted to ask you this question because, you know, so much of growing a business is not just growing, the business or the tactics or all of that, but it's also growing bring ourselves as well. And so I always like to check in with my guests and see what some of their favorite books are. So I wanted to ask you, if you had one, and then there's probably many. But if you would recommend one book to our audience, that's kind of like a must read for them. Which one would you recommend?

So, yeah, it's definitely a lot. And there's so there's so many that I've, that I've read that have made a huge impact on on my life. And my business, one of the ones that I've revisited recently is called the artists way by Julia Cameron. And it sounds like it's written for artists because it was written for artists. But what I've, you know, I'll throw out two. So the artists way, and another one that's actually related to that, which is the War of Art, not the art of war, that's a different book, but The War of Art. And they talk about I mean, both about, like, how we can channel our unique purpose and our art, whether that's painting or music, or digital marketing and email, it doesn't really matter, that's just the label that we that we put on it. But when it comes to our creative expression, as a person, as an entrepreneur, what happens is, we tend to get stifled by these influences that are outside of us by society, by what other people think, by expectations that we create, of other people's success and having to attain a certain level, let's say, of material success. And both of these books actually have a lot of a lot of ideas and a lot of exercises for how to combat that. Almost artists block that we get, and how to freely and creatively express ourselves. So I would, I would highly recommend either of those as a good starting point. Because it's all about the best and highest expression of yourself, when, when you're an entrepreneur.

I love those recommendations so much for for a couple of reasons. Number one, I've read the artists way about 12 years ago, and same thing, like I thought, Oh, this is for artists, I just started reading it because my wife had it sitting there. And I'm like, I couldn't stop reading it. And so and it really helped a lot. And like you said, building a business and digital marketing. It's just our art form. It's just our art form, and how do we bring ourselves to it, which is amazing, The War of Art I have not read. And so I'm going to put that on my list as well. And for our listeners, I'm going to link to both of those books right here, just beneath this video. And in the podcast, show notes, go check those out. I always find it fascinating, Justin, that I, I asked this question. And I almost never get the same answer. Like in 70 Plus episodes, there's probably only been duplication about one or two times. And so now we've got this like amazing soundbite of all of these amazing books. So thank you for keeping the trend alive. And in making a couple of awesome recommendations there. So overall, this has been a great episode. I mean, we've only scratched the surface about email marketing, I mean, we could do a, you know, probably fill a few days worth of all of the things that are helpful with email marketing. So I highly encourage you, if you're listening in right now, and your email marketing could be improved, or you have some issues going on, then, you know, reach out to Justin, he's a great resource and just a great person to collaborate with. And I know we have a free gift for you as well. So Justin, you want to tell them a little bit about that and and also what's the best way to reach you. And we'll make sure all the links are beneath this video and in the show notes for people to connect with you.

Absolutely. So I have a guide that I've created. that's specific to how to optimize your email marketing for the best results and things that you should do things that you should look out for. It talks about deliverability and other aspects of of engagement. And it's a really good foundational piece for how to execute email marketing. Well also throw out if you guys wanted to do a coaching session, feel free to email me at Justin at nitrox marketing.com And I'm taking a few more coaching sessions this month for any of your listeners where we could get on a call 30 minutes breakdown on what's going on in your business with your email marketing and enhance it. And also feel free to follow me on the socials LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all the same Justin T Keltner. That's KELTNER, you could follow my digital nomad adventures and business and different podcasts and things that I do there as well.

Fantastic. Well, all of that is linked beneath this video and in the show notes for the podcast. I highly recommend that you take Justin up on this offer and And just to make it better, what I'm going to do is suggest do reach out, get His free gift, reach out, and then email us back. And let us know that you did that. And I've got a free gift for you, I'm not gonna tell you what it is, it's a surprise. But believe me, it's a good one. And, and so a lot, we, we've done that not with everybody. But we've done that with the ones that we do really feel like strongly that they're really, I think beneficial to reach out to. And Justin, you're one of those. So thank you so much for this, and for taking the time to share some of your best tips and advice for everyone here with their email marketing. And as we bring this episode to a close, if you were to leave everyone with just one, one final tip or words of wisdom, what would you say to

them? That's a good one. That's, I think that the, the some of what I see from a, from a human perspective, you know, like, put email aside, just treat people not like you want to be treated, but how you think they want to be treated, obviously, that the more of a connection you have with the person, the better. But we go through our lives, and I'm guilty of this a lot. You know, it's like, okay, what do I need from this and it's just just like with email marketing, you know, people with the asks and sign up for my thing, give me money and thinking from that mindset. Whenever I get on a call, like from my my joint venture group, or people that I meet through podcasting or through events, the first question I always ask is, like, you know, what do you have going on? How can I help you? And does it come back in multiples later? Absolutely. But I do that because I feel like I'm genuinely here to serve. And I want to make the world a better place. Sure, it helps me a lot of the time to it always comes back, karma will always come back. But when you look at life, from the perspective of what can I do for this person in front of me, that's when the ultimate goal of real fulfillment and happiness will be reached because business relationships, life, it's all about your connection with other people and, and how you show up for them. So I think starting with the other person in mind is is always the way to do it.