Aug. 29, 2023

Unveiling Workplace Culture Transformation With Angela Howard

Unveiling Workplace Culture Transformation With Angela Howard
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Season 1

On this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, Kim Clark is joined by Organizational Psychologist, Angela Howard. Throughout this insightful episode, Angela and Kim delve into the realm of culture transformation while taking us on a journey to understand the intricate workings of how organizational culture shapes and molds our workplaces. Not only do they explore the connections between an organization’s stated values vs their actions, but also shed light on the challenge of how this alignment influences an organization’s communication strategies. They also break down the role of an organizational psychologist, the necessity of leadership remodeling and how communicators are the co-creators of workplace culture all while unpacking how powerful the tool of language is in shaping culture.

About The Guest:

Angela R. Howard is a former CPO/CHRO, Organizational Psychologist and the CEO of Call for Culture - an organization that applies psychology, anthropology, and sociology to the science of culture development and change. Her mission is to help transform companies into environments where employees can deploy their contributions for positive organizational outcomes and social impact. Her podcast, Social Responsibility at Work, interviews change makers who are actively creating solutions for this mission.

Find Angela Here:

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About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

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Transcript
Kim Clark:

Hello, hello, welcome back. I'm so pleased to be here

Kim Clark:

with Angela, Howard Angela and I got connected What was it like a

Kim Clark:

year or so maybe a little bit more, then we just hit it off

Kim Clark:

the first time we met. We're like, there's so much synergy

Kim Clark:

between our work but also our interests or passions.

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And I'm super fascinated by your path of how

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you got into diversity and equity inclusion work. So why

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don't you introduce yourself? And then I've got like, a ton of

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questions for you. Yeah. Well, Kim, thank you so much for

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having me. First of all, it was a pleasure having you on the

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podcast about my podcast. So the tables have turned, it's a

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beautiful thing to be on the other side. So thank you for

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that. Hi, everyone. My name is Angela Howard. I am an

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organizational psychologist and the CEO of a company called call

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for culture. And, you know, we focus on cultural transformation

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work. And what does that mean? Because I think we're throwing

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the word culture around a lot lately. And really, what we're

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focused on is how do you match organizations words with their

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actions, and ultimately connecting that back to their

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value system? So from a behavioral perspective, how are

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we shifting and transforming organizations? And so that's a

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little bit about me. Now, that's what makes us so awesome as

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partners, because you know, I often say, language leads to

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behavior. So I got the language, I got the communications, you've

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got the culture, you've got the behavior. I love it, just like

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two peas in a pod our work? I love that. Exactly, exactly. So

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what tell me more about what an organizational psychologist does

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and what that background is? And how do you apply that to your

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work?

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Yeah, so you know, I always like to say, you know, IO

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psychologist, so the technical term for my degree is industrial

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organizational psychology. I think it's becoming more and

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more prominent, but we do have a branding problem. So I think

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someone in communication should work on that. I'm automatically

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thinking of grease and machines. Yeah, exactly a horrible

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branding problem. But really, you know, this work started

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during the Industrial Revolution, where quite

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honestly, it was like, you know, how do we most effectively get

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the most out of people? You know? And of course, that's not

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the work we do today, it's evolved more to, you know, How

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do humans actually behave within the workplace? How do we think

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about organizations as microcosms of society, and

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almost like a study of anthropology, right. But we're

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using data and science to make decisions around around people

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within organizations, and how to not just get the most out of

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them, but also to work with the human condition and how humans

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thrive within the workplace. Okay, all right. So you were

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defining culture earlier?

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Often, there's, there's an acknowledgement of the formal

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side of culture, and then the informal side of culture. So

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when you're working with clients, and if you have any

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kind of stories, you know, talk about certain clients

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situations, how do you help them understand the influence of

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culture, especially towards diversity, equity and inclusion

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goals for an organization?

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Yeah, so I think a lot of times, we have misconceptions around

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what culture is, you know, this connects back to my academic

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background, because in IO psychology, we talk a lot about

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the organization as a system, and how the different pieces

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work together to drive behavior and action and change. And so

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when it comes to culture, you know, culture is really just a

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culmination of rituals, beliefs, habits, things that happen

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almost like below the surface, it's things you can't quite, you

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can't always name or put your finger on, but they've evolved

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over time to a point where it just is. And a lot of times this

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gets in the way of change. Because if you think about a

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founder who's built a company, and it's 100 years old, you can

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you can see how those traditions and rituals have evolved over

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time to just stick right and nobody questions them. Nobody

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says anything. But what a lot of organizations don't do is they

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don't audit that connected back to their value system. So we

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work with organizations to say, Okay, well, you have these

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beautiful core values, right? These are core values that maybe

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weren't developed even 100 years ago. They haven't changed with

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the times or even, you know, broader culture and society, so

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maybe we should relook at them. And let's really talk about what

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are the behavioral proof points

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So that tells us that we're doing these things. And I think

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a lot of organizations do a great job of putting the

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beautiful words on a webpage or a wall, but they don't actually

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define the behaviors. So I'm talking about inclusion, you're

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talking about inclusion from completely different mental

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models.

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I think that's really very important to understand is we

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may be throwing around these terms, but it doesn't mean I

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understand them. It doesn't mean that you know, I mean, the same

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thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean that I know

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what it looks like when it's happening. Another challenge

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that we have as dei communicators is that we focus

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and rely on the terms diversity, equity and inclusion as kind of

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safeguards that people get it. And people understand that's not

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the case. So I'm challenging a lot of my clients to say, what

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are the outcomes of diversity that we're seeking? What are the

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outcomes of equity and inclusion? Are we seeking so

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it's, it's more of like, use those words. And that will reach

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more people who are triggered by the words by the phrases? And

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you know, and words, dei, for sure. But sometimes, I think,

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no, I know, that us as communicators need to go below

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the surface to understand what diversity equity inclusion

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actually is, because we use these terms to kind of hide

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behind, and we don't go deeper into what they actually meet. So

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you know, people who are kind of new to D, I R feel like it's

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being pressed upon them. I think one of the things they don't

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they that we've not done a good job as di communicators, to do

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for these folks is to help them understand the DEI exists in

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culture, wherever there's people, there's a culture that's

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created, co created. And what we're seeing is kind of the

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shadow side of Dei, because it's wild, wild west, it's not

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intentional, it's not strategic, you know, it's not informed. And

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that's what all we're trying to do is to get to just like really

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honing in on a product, or on a service and truly understanding

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what it is knowing how to measure it and understanding the

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benefits of this product to our company. It's really

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understanding and getting below that surface. So we don't just

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hide, hide behind these terms. So can you talk a little bit

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more about how culture can be unbridled that it will happen

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with or without us. But as we get more intentional with CO

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creating culture, towards these outcomes, that diversity, equity

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and inclusion, are trying to drive us towards and promise us?

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Yeah, so the best analogy I can think of, for this to kind of

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lose us a little bit of storytelling here is a garden.

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And I use this often when when it comes to culture, because

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first of all, what happens when you don't tend to a garden? You

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get weeds, right? So culture is only my backyard right now.

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Exactly, say mine too. So if you're thinking about culture,

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as it's something you certainly need to curate in your mind, but

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you also have to do things. You can't just speak it and make it

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so so I can't just say you know what, this bed of flowers is

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going to be a beautiful bed of daisies, you actually have to,

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you know, dig in the dirt, you've got to pull the weeds,

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you have to constantly tend to the culture of your

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organization. And I think sometimes, as leaders we we have

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these programs, right? We develop these programs that have

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a start date and an end date. And well intended, maybe a

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little performative because culture is something you're

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being much more kind than I am

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Yes, I'm I'm slicing and dicing my words a little bit here but

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But truly, you know, you have to

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you have to nurture culture, you have to understand what the

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layout of it you know, if we think about the garden again,

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the the daisies go there, the the roses go there, we want to

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make sure the weeds are pulled, you know, the weeds are about

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the best analogy for people are leaders who are actually doing

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the opposite of what you want within your culture. So I think

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sometimes we focus so much on adding on, when in reality we

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should be deconstructing or even taking away to get to the

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culture that we're looking for. So absolutely, it's absolutely

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something you have to attend to constantly. And really, you need

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an anchor for that. And we, you know, our philosophy a call for

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culture is that your value systems translated into those

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behavioral proof points is your anchor. And that should be

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something that's baked into everything you do, how you hire,

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how you develop, how you evaluate how you hold people

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accountable.

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What your policies and processes look like how your employment

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value proposition shows up how your brand value shows up, it

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should be baked into everything that you do as an organization.

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And planting those seeds. So if we're, if we're planting seeds

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of roses, don't be really pissed off. If it comes out as roses

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when you actually want it to lips, you can't be mad at the

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seeds. It's like, what did you take a look around? If there's a

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whole bunch of apple trees? And you're like, where's the

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variety? Well, it's because we've been planting apples this

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whole time. So there's that that's where we're coming from

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and being strategic and intentional. And saying, if we

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want a wide variety of fruit in our orchard, that's what we have

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to plant and nurture to your point. So let's get into

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language. So what role does language have when it comes to

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shaping culture? And,

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you know, you know, and just communications in general?

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Yeah, so gosh, I have so many thoughts on this. The first

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thought is, you know, I like to think about language as there's,

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there's equity in it. So

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what I mean by that is, you know, when I start working with

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an organization, I spent a lot of time pretty much the first

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month learning the language of the organization, because back

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to that point around inclusion, what I'm saying and you're

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saying may be two completely different things, we may be

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using different words, but meaning the same thing as well.

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So we spent a lot of time just from our and this is where the

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anthropology comes in.

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Observing and understanding when we talk about culture, what are

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we actually talking about? You're saying one thing, but

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meaning another, or your behavior and your actions are

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mismatch? Why is that? So language, I think, has some

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brand equity in it. And it's important to sometimes meet

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people where they are. That's the first piece is, I may be

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saying one thing and using different language, we may be

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talking about the same thing. So I think language can connect

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people and create understanding. The second thing is that

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language sends a signal. So if we're using language that makes

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me feel less than celebrated, if we're using language that

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excludes people, because nobody knows what it means, that is a

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tool for exclusion within an organization. And then thirdly,

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you know, I think language is just something that again, from

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an anthro anthropology perspective, it, it's more of

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that broader sea culture, right, I think of like workplace

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culture as a lowercase c, and then you're working with the,

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the broader uppercase C language is how we

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used, you know, information and share information and tell

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people how we're feeling how we're doing. And then hearing

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things over and over, again, I think are really important for

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things to stick from a cultural perspective. So that was a lot,

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because I saw this question. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's

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so many implications around language. So so much. Yeah. And

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I know you're a proponent of inclusive language and gender

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neutral language, and really helping clients understand what

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is inclusive language, what is that language that we can use to

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create this culture that your values are asking you to create?

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I do a lot of we're recording this during pride month in June,

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and I do a lot of talks about pride and tell my own personal,

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you know, coming out story, etc. And one of the things that I

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always want to share is this idea of an inclusion agreement

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where in order to create a welcoming environment, one of

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the things that I sniff out as a gay woman is are you making

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jokes about the gay community? Are you you know, saying Love is

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love but doing a different thing? Like you said, like, do

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you make fun of pronouns? Do you not have your pronouns on your

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email signature? So there's, there's a signifiers that people

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within the community will look for to see if they're safe in

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your environment. And I'm reminded of a story I was told

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by my mentor who said that it's a great story it's of a kid and

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you know, a bunch of kids in kindergarten the and the

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question was asked, what is love? You know, so you're

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talking about these different ways that definitions can come

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out. And so one kid says, Love is my name safe in your mouth?

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Oh, that's power I name is safe in your mouth. And so if we

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think about that in a workplace, like is my name is My identity

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is who I am safe in your mouth, whether I'm in the room or not,

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and whether you know me or not, so whether I ever meet

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You are not so in your family, in your co workers, the the team

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that you may manage or the company you may lead or how you

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vote or where you spend and donate your money, is my name is

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My identity is my humanity safe with you? So I really think it's

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important for folks to understand, you know, the role

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that language leading to behavior and CO creating this

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culture is these are things that we're looking for,

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you know, we're looking for words and phrases, or their

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jokes or the way are people not stopping jokes. And then I know

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that I'm not safe in this environment. And then I know who

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to trust and who not to trust. And so in one of those early

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signifiers, is people who use their pronouns, for example,

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that I know that at least, they're aware enough and care

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enough to extend that signifier to folks in the community.

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You work with a variety of companies, and they're all over

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the place from just getting started or may have been working

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on di and various forms over the last two decades, right. So I'm

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super interested in what in this day and time where we're

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experiencing right now, basically, a dei backlash from

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three years ago, the summer of 2020, where there was this

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thrust forward, where there was this requirement that we need to

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start talking about racism, sexism,

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ableism, heteronormativity, etc, we have to talk about it, but we

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all suck at talking about it, especially in a work

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environment, we have terrible or no role models for this. But now

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there's this pushback, which is a signifier of progress being a

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spiral, it's not linear, it's a spiral. So we're circling

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around, which means we're going to come around the bend very

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soon, and there's going to be this momentum going forward,

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which is what listeners of this podcast are looking for is how

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to be a part of that movement, that continued forward movement

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of inclusivity in the workplace, as well as in society in

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general. So what are some of the, like the top three

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challenges that you're seeing your clients and organizations

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going through as they do this work? In the midst of this kind

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of, you know, should show

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a lot of organizations are are experiencing right now this?

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This, this identity crisis? Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's so

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interesting to watch, because I think

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I'm seeing one of two things, either people are really

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doubling down on their values around this. So they're saying

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it's even more important than it was before?

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And those are the people we want to work with. Right? Yeah,

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that's one thing that I've I've learned in this work is that

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I would love to be able to change minds. And that is a part

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of our influence as communicators, and as

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changemakers. And I don't want to enter an organization and

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waste your money or my money, if this is something you're not

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committed to do. So it is this fine balance. Or two, there's

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people who are doubling down on the other side and saying, you

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know, what, we're just going to focus on customer

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centric operations, we're going to focus on things that, you

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know, in the short term drive profit, and aren't really a part

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of the sustainability conversation. My theory is those

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companies are going to fail. Yes, we'll see them in a year or

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two, when they it's going to be more expensive to fix. I'm right

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there with you. Exactly. So I think what the big themes that

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I'm finding, as we're, you know, because we go through an

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assessment process, we do kind of a reality check with

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organizations, we audit their value system, this is all part

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of our process. And at the end of the process, when we're

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presenting the results to them, the one thing that comes up

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every single time is leadership, role modeling,

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is a lack of reality setting around how the executive team or

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the top level leaders are actually

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exemplifying operationalizing the values in their day to day

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behavior. There's usually a realization that there's

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somebody at the top, who is counter culture to what we're

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looking to build. And there's usually a lot of hard decisions

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that need to be made. You know, I work with some companies where

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the CEO had lack of visibility that they had a problematic

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leader within the organization and through our process, they

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realized oh,

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one bad player in this is going to destruct our entire culture

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and I will say that, you know, your culture is your worst

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behavior at your organization. When I tell that to leaders, it

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kind of clicks for them like, Oh, this is this is

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A question of integrity. I get it. It's not just about a bunch

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of activity. It's also about my integrity as a leader, as a CEO

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as a founder. And they quickly started to, and legacy.

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Absolutely. So that's a big aha moment. And you know, there's

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some people, there's some leaders who really are focused

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on that legacy. And there's some who just don't get that. And so

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it's kind of a coaching opportunity throughout our time

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together to help them understand how this is impacting their

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culture, how some of this is more lagging indicators versus

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leading indicators. But I do believe, you know, we can pretty

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quickly understand if the commitment is, is there upfront,

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pretty early on, or if it's performative. And I will say

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there, there seems to be a split of those two things, and we try

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to lean towards those companies who are committed to the work.

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Yeah, absolutely. That's why I've changed how I describe the

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kind of work that I do is that I work with folks, primarily

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communicators, and leaders who are serious about learning and

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applying diversity, equity and inclusion to their

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communications on a daily basis.

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You know, so yeah, I am right there with you. You know, and

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some people may have that intention, you were talking

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about that good intention, well, intentions. They think that

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they're serious about the work. But as I have found and why I,

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you know, reached out to Janet Stovall, to co author a book

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with me on conscious communications in general, is

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that I find that a lot of communicators and leaders in

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particular, don't understand what the work is, they meant

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what they put up in the summer of 2020, and the tweets, but

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they didn't really understand what the work is that's behind

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it. So yes, there's a lot of us di practitioners that we're not

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going to participate in performative work with clients,

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because that gives an excuse to leaders to say, see, it doesn't

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work. Yes, when it's not our work that failed, right? It

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could be just mostly an education of understanding what

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the work actually is, and just coming to that agreement up

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front, to truly understand are like in are you in, and we'll

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take you where you are? Well, we'll take we'll move you where

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you from where you are, you don't have to go zero to 60. But

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you know, and there's this whole amount of work that I'm sure

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that you see, when you're making recommendations and do your

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roadmap is sometimes to your point, it's not always adding

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new things. Sometimes it's just reducing harm that makes the

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most

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right off the top. Let's let's start there.

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I would totally agree. And I think, you know, I've, and this

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is why we've become really clear up front when we work with

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clients is we just want to be clear, you are doing the work,

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we are guiding you because our goal is to work ourselves out of

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a job. We want this to be sustainable. You don't want to

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lean on us for a decade, you know, like that's not smart or

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conscious. And too, I think, you know, a lot of times we work

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with clients and not so much now because we've we've we've

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smartened up in the process, but you know, you get to that end

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point. And they see the results, and they're like, Oh, well not

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like that we didn't we didn't want you to tell us that like we

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wanted you, we wanted you to tell us what kind of training we

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need, or you know what kind of like,

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monthly DNI programs we should implement. Just like when you

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hire the wrong person, I am so sorry, we were misaligned.

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Because that's not work that's going to impact anything. It's

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throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

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So yeah, I totally with you. You know, there's a Harvard Business

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Journal research that I constantly share that talks

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about it's it's it's a data collected over 1000 Different

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companies, globally, actually. And these are all organizations

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that have dei strategies. And it was found in this data that 75%

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of employees at different parts in levels of the organization,

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their daily lives were not impacted or improved in any way,

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shape, or form that is 75%. So everything's staying at the top

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with the awesome branding, and the cool infographics. And there

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might be employee resource groups, but are they empowered?

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You know, to actually do a work? Do they have a business value?

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Do they have a cultural value? Are they supported in a way that

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actually has meaningful change and proved impact to you know,

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folks, his experience of the workplace culture, so there's a

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lot of education that has to go around. There's a lot of

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paradigms that we need to let go of. And Rediff

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notions of what this work actually looks like. So when

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you're working with a client, are you working with the

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communications teams? And if so, what are you needing from them?

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What are you telling them? That is their work to do as part of

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the successful outcomes of Di?

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Yeah, so like you said before, we work with organizations that

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all have all sizes, and sometimes we're working with

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organizations that don't have a communication team. So one of

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the key parts of our process is all around messaging. And so if

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there is a communications team, we work hand in hand with them

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to align messaging to align modalities of messaging, the

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content around that messaging, to the initiative, but also to

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the sustainability of that initiative. So we want to work

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within the organizational structure of how things are

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actually communicate. I think that's kind of the first step.

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There's some basics around how does that company communicate

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today. So we'd like to meet them where they are, but we also

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challenge them and ask them to get creative on ensuring that we

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are inclusively talking to everyone within the

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organization. It's not just an email that's sent to 500 people

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with the same messaging. You know, we're also using smaller

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containers of conversations and listening throughout the

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process. So we're, you know, sometimes we're coaching the

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communications team, because it might be a more of a traditional

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communications team. But you know, our goal is to create

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bilateral methods of listening and communicating. And we do

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that through a variety of modalities. But the goal is to

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plan that out ahead of time, work that plan, but then also

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kind of iterate as we go. And as we learn things, so we want to

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be strategic and intentional as possible. But with the

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flexibility to change as we go and to listen and to iterate.

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And communications really shaped the culture. There's a tone that

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set by communications kind of words that we use, are we super

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jargon heavy or always super stuck on our headquartered

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country's colloquialisms? You know, so there are all kinds of

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ways that communicators really need to step up. I'm a, I'm a

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firm believer, I don't know how you feel about this, Angela is

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that de ai efforts cannot be successful without

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communicators, getting their head around this work and

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stepping up and truly understanding what it is because

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they are co creators and shapers of the workplace culture.

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Yes, absolutely. 100%. And, you know, when I worked as a chro,

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before I started my own business, communications and

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marketing, were my two.

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Everybody was a partner in a way, but they were really close

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partners for me.

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Especially communications, because those two things are

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just so connected, like you said,

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with your experience as a Chief Human Resources Officer.

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What's your take on dei being kind of staged within HR?

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Oh, well, I think we're seeing an interesting,

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a trend around like what I like to call kind of this hero and

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Cape mentality when it comes to Chief people, officers, and also

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chief diversity officers where all of this work around culture

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and DNI sits within a person. And I think there's a lack of

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understanding that when you when you hire a chief people officer

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or chief diversity officer or chief HR officer, all the

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different, you know, titles we give heads of

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they are facilitators, they are guides. This work needs to work

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and be built within the fabric of your organizational culture.

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And I almost see it as we're, we should be working ourselves out

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of a job just like we do as consultants. The diversity team

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should also be working themselves out of a job. Now, is

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that possible? Probably not. It's kind of a meta idea. But

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it's the idea that you're building sustainability within

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the organization. So when you place DNI under HR, for example,

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first of all, you're buffering it and sending a signal that

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it's not a strategic cultural focus of the organization.

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You're also sending a signal that

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this department exists, but it exists in a vacuum, and nobody

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else should be doing this work. So I think it's detrimental to

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be honest to have DNI sit under HR

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And then I think it's detrimental if organizations are

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hiring D and AI experts or heads of thinking that that person is

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owning D and I, I love those points. And I and I completely

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agree with you, you know, there's an unintentional side of

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like, oh, this is where it goes, because there's budget, its

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culture, its employees. So we're like, that demonstrates, we

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don't really understand what dei is. So we're gonna put it in HR.

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And then there's sometimes an intentional, putting it under

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HR, because HR is always there to protect the company, and you

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know, the company first versus people first. And it could be

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there to kind of box in dei and limit its scope and impact. But

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while looking like we're doing something, but it's actually not

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meaningful, which is why we're getting a lot of this

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performative and you know, harm more than good. Sometimes it's

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intentional to keep it under control. And some of it is

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sometimes it's like, we don't know what it really is. So, you

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know, it seems like everybody else puts it under HR, when in

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fact, having its own lane, like there's it, there's legal,

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there's HR, all of those groups are embedded across the entire

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organization. Yes, there's always a finance person in every

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in every department, there's always it, there's always HR, D

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AI is no different communications should not be any

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different. There should be communications across and there

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should be di across. So it's, it's again, flipping the script,

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and really shifting the paradigms of how we understand

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and taking the time, honestly, to truly understand

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what the eye is, we keep coming back to that because it's this

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ties into the culture like of our culture, we have, like, how

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do you feel about this, Angela, something that I work with, with

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communicators is, I challenged them by saying we have a real

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lack of imagination when it comes to diversity, equity and

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inclusion.

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And so it's like we just kind of look around, even as leaders, we

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look around and just kind of see what is sometimes it's hard for

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us to like vision.

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Something my mentor says pain pushes until vision pulls, we're

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in pain.

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Pain has been pushing us to do Dei, we were in pain in the

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summer of 2020, we have we're feeling a lot of pain, a lot of

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people are feeling deeper and deeper, there's a lot of pain

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going on for the LGBTQ plus community right now with over

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550, anti, you know, LGBTQ plus bills and the criminalization

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of, of people's existence, you know, so there's a lot of pain

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that's that that people are experiencing. And in some

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organizations, that's enough to push them. But we actually have

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this tremendous opportunity to shift that momentum and actually

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be pulled by vision that takes imagination. How do you do that

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with your clients and pulling them towards this vision of, of

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understanding how their culture and their organization will be

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improved? Through this work with you?

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Yeah, it's, it's a multitude of things. But I think the first

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one is really the reality check of the gap. As to so what we do

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in the beginning with our clients is we do something

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called purpose alignment. And that is really like the

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development, the memorialization of our value system and those

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behavioral proof points, then we assess. And what we typically

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hear is, we thought we were here, but we're actually the gap

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is actually this wide, right? Like talking to the people

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within the organizations like the whole the whole executive

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team. It's like, yeah, we're inclusive. We implement all

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these equity practices, and they just like throw out buzzwords,

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right, yeah. But then you ask your people, and they're like,

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like you said, 75% of people don't feel anything. They're

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like, nope, my leader still makes me feel super, super

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unsafe. I'm walking on eggshells. I'm not recognized

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for my work. I don't feel celebrated. I don't feel like my

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identity is celebrated. I hear off putting jokes and

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microaggressions. And we, so the first thing is really to present

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the data, the reality. And then, you know, we align that with

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their purpose, the purpose workshop that they work, we work

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with them on to say, Okay, how do we start to close the gap.

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And this is a most this is, again, a multi year and a multi

Unknown:

decade journey. This is not just about implementing a few things

Unknown:

and saying, Look, we did it, we remeasure hopefully reassess

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every year to see how were closing the gap. And we continue

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being consistent with the evaluation on our value system.

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And we continue to hold you know, if if we continue to be

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employed by the client, you know, we're kind of

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accountability partners as well to to challenge to step into

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that channel.

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enroll and say, Hey, you said this, but you're doing this.

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Does that make sense to you? And if it does, I think we have a

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problem because we don't see it that way as your consultant. So

Unknown:

I think it's about setting the vision upfront, assessing

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against that, that vision, seeing where the gaps are being

Unknown:

really humble, to those results, to say, oh, shit, we have a

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problem. Let's work on that.

Unknown:

I think what you shouldn't do is see those results and say things

Unknown:

like, Oh, well, not like that, or that's ridiculous. It's all

Unknown:

their problem and not ours, because we've seen that too. And

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then there's kind of just a shutdown.

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So there's a little bit of grieving that happens, I don't

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know how to describe it, because there's grieving. Yeah, people,

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I work a lot with leaders as they're grieving through the

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results. And this is actually part of our process. And it's a

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little bit the psychology part of it all, which is, you're

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losing something you're losing of, you're losing a vision of

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what you thought already existed, that now you see

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doesn't exist. And you see all these huge gaps in some of those

Unknown:

gaps around your own leadership, or your leadership teams

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leadership or how the organization has operated thus

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far. And so it truly is a grieving process to work through

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that future vision. But you have to go through it, you have to go

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through the the murkiness and the nastiness to get there.

Unknown:

It's like the five stages of grief. So oftentimes, we see

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the, the deny, or the bargaining, you see the anger,

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we're seeing that a lot. But we don't talk enough about the

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grieving part, and the accepting the acceptance, those are the

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five stages of grief. And so I really appreciate you really

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talking about that sadness, that kind of sense of loss of a

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different picture.

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And not shutting down and having that humility, to be open to

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hear what you know, because oftentimes, our leaders are

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surrounded by people that tell them what they want to hear.

Unknown:

That's the beauty of going outside, you get you know, you

Unknown:

know, you don't, you don't know what you don't know. And you're

Unknown:

going to always cater to, you know what's going to keep your

Unknown:

job or get you promoted or keep you out of trouble. But a

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consultant can come in, and just have real talk. And I think

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leaders really do respect that and actually appreciate that no

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matter how, you know, it can be really hard to hear.

Unknown:

So absolutely. Let me

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ask you this, this is something that I asked everybody, and I

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really look forward to your answer as well on this as the

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name of the podcast is communicate like you give a damn

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right. So what does that sound like, in your work? To you? What

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does it feel like? What does it look like? What does it sound

Unknown:

like to communicate like you give a damn?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I think the first thing is understanding your people,

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not just their roles, but as humans, their wants, their

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desires, their needs, their aspirations, their agendas, you

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know, you really have to spend time understanding the nuances

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and the diversity of your people. And know that that

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translates into different ways of communicating.

Unknown:

I think that's the first thing. The second thing, I think, is

Unknown:

all around transparency. So a lot of leaders that I work with,

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loves to spin communications, they love to use the flowery

Unknown:

language. And it's just not helpful and it does more harm

Unknown:

than good. And people I think, I hate to say this, and maybe I'm,

Unknown:

maybe I'm not saying it the correct way. But this is what I

Unknown:

think I think a lot of leaders underestimate the brilliance of

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their people. And they think if they spin results or spin

Unknown:

communications, it's just gonna, they're just gonna, like smile

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and go along with it. People are not dumb. People are really,

Unknown:

really smart. And so when they can see right through the

Unknown:

bullshit, so when you're constantly communicating about

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how great everything is,

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you're getting the eye rolls, trust me. So I think

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communicating like you give a damn is also being able to say

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the hardship, being vulnerable as a leader saying, You know

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what? Things aren't going well right now. We know we've had a

Unknown:

focus on DNI but we're not seeing any impact. And that's a

Unknown:

problem. Yeah. And here's what here's what we're going to do

Unknown:

about it. Like, just be real, because if you're not people,

Unknown:

people are going to roll their eyes and you're going to destroy

Unknown:

the integrity of whatever kind of cultural transformation

Unknown:

you're looking to make. Thank you for saying all that. Yeah,

Unknown:

it's, it's yeah, just how refreshing would it be to hear

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an organization actually own where they

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Are you take responsibility for it, I was working with an

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insurance client. And they're in the CEO said, we had a much more

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racially diverse group of staff than we do now. And the only

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thing I can say to that is we took our eye off the ball. Now,

Unknown:

it's a sports analogy, but one that I understand personally, to

Unknown:

where it's like, yeah, if you're not intentional, and it's not a

Unknown:

one and done, like you said, it's not like a chiropractic

Unknown:

adjustment, we just, you know, it's one and then we never have

Unknown:

to have an adjustment. Again, it's an ongoing work, it's a

Unknown:

deepening work, there's always something to learn.

Unknown:

So the other thing have to, I wanted it, you just have to

Unknown:

stick with it, otherwise, it will get out of hand again,

Unknown:

which is what we're also seeing with the LGBTQ plus community is

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that we can't take

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our rights for granted. For example, go ahead.

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And that's I wanted to mention that because we are in Pride

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Month, and I think this month has usually been a and it still

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is a time for celebration.

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And to your point, the community's rights are being

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questioned, the very existence of their bodies and humanity are

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being questioned. So I think the the messaging right now, this is

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a great example of messaging where we can be real to say,

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we want to be an organization that celebrates this community,

Unknown:

but let's be real, we are at the very basic bottom of the pyramid

Unknown:

right now around safety. People don't even feel safe. So you

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know, all all of the messages around celebrating pride and all

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these things, they just, I think those are, those are met with

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eye rolls, at least for me when I'm seeing a you know, an

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organization or somebody posts about pride month, and it's time

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to celebrate, like people are afraid for their lives. Let's

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talk about that. Yep. Before we talk about celebration, because

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that is the that is the pressing contextual issue right now. So I

Unknown:

think there's this balance of getting us to your point, moving

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towards this vision of what should be but also acknowledging

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where we are, and having those tough conversations of where we

Unknown:

are, and especially if we're not doing well,

Unknown:

talking about that, and being transparent. Thank you for

Unknown:

saying that. I know you're a strong ally. And I really,

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really, really appreciate that you said that is near and dear

Unknown:

to my heart. Just yesterday morning, my girlfriend and I

Unknown:

were talking about meeting up with some friends at a pride

Unknown:

event this weekend. And she's like, I don't know, if I feel

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safe going.

Unknown:

You know, there's a genuine fear we spent the week last week in

Unknown:

Toronto, where, you know, walking around in the gay

Unknown:

neighborhood of Toronto, we the worst thing that we were made

Unknown:

aware of that could happen is like insults, physical abuse,

Unknown:

those kinds of things. But there was never I didn't realize how

Unknown:

alarmed not how sensitive I am to my surroundings when I'm in

Unknown:

the States. How aware I am of exits. How, you know how kind of

Unknown:

tense I was feeling until I was in Toronto. And realize that I

Unknown:

that, you know, there was a little bit of a PST PTSD that I

Unknown:

was feeling of I just didn't realize how

Unknown:

how much it was impacting my sensitive little system of just

Unknown:

being afraid for my safety and the safety of those around me

Unknown:

until I came back to the States. It's actually been kind of a

Unknown:

culture shift for me to come back to the States after being

Unknown:

in a space where really the worst thing that could happen to

Unknown:

me is that someone call me a name or punch me or try to stop

Unknown:

me right. That's, that's, I can deal with terrifying. Yeah, I

Unknown:

don't want to deal with it. But I'm not it's it's the lethality

Unknown:

difference. And so, you know, so it's a very real, very personal

Unknown:

experience that I'm having right now in pride is around our is

Unknown:

my, my personal safety. Yeah, just going out and having a good

Unknown:

time with my friends, like everybody should have the right

Unknown:

and the ability to do so. So, you know, I love you your work I

Unknown:

admire and respect in the incredible work that you're

Unknown:

doing and making the shift and taking everything that you've

Unknown:

gotten so far and turning it into a service to companies, you

Unknown:

desperately need this kind of service and a little bit of a

Unknown:

hand holding that you actually help them through the emotional

Unknown:

side of this work, which is absolutely necessary. Not

Unknown:

everything. You use data, but there can be an emotional

Unknown:

reaction to that data. So you just you're there on both on all

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the fronts and I appreciate that work that you do for clients,

Unknown:

how can people follow you and stay in touch with your work?

Unknown:

Yeah,

Unknown:

Absolutely. Well, thank you, Kim so much. You can follow me on

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LinkedIn. I'm under Angela, our Howard, our company pages call

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for culture on there. And then if you wanted to reach out,

Unknown:

you can go to call for culture.com. And that's where

Unknown:

you can view a little bit more about our services and how we

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help organizations through this work.

Unknown:

And your podcast is, and my podcast. Oh my gosh, yes. So we

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also have a podcast and held social responsibility at work.

Unknown:

And you can catch us on all over the all the podcast platforms

Unknown:

anywhere where you listen.

Unknown:

And yes, find our episode where you and I are having a chat

Unknown:

about some some things that were going on culturally and in

Unknown:

communications at the time.

Unknown:

And we're still seeing the fallout of that whole scenario

Unknown:

that we talked about. Thank you for being here. Angela, thank

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you so much. It was a real honor to spend this time with you.

Unknown:

Thank you for sharing. Thank you so much, Kim, appreciate you