Oct. 3, 2023

Unmasking Language Bias With Dr. Suzanne Wertheim

Unmasking Language Bias With Dr. Suzanne Wertheim

In the next episode of Communicate Like You Give a Damn, host Kim Clark sits down with a true trailblazer in the field of workplace linguistics, Suzanne Wertheim, a national expert on inclusive language and author of the new book, The Inclusive Language Field Guide. Together, they have an enlightening conversation surrounding linguistic anthropology, language bias and how it relates to communicating in today’s workplace. Not only do they unpack how to deal with problematic language, but they also explore the evolution of language and understanding how semantics have changed over time, both for the better and worse. 

About The Guest:

Dr. Suzanne Wertheim is a national expert on inclusive language and the author of The Inclusive Language Field Guide (2023). After getting her Ph.D. in Linguistics from Berkeley, she held faculty positions at Northwestern, University of Maryland, and UCLA. In 2011, she left the university system in order to apply her expertise to real-world problems. Dr. Wertheim has been an invited speaker around the US and in Europe, presenting research on language and bias, language and gender, and anthropology and artificial intelligence. As head of Worthwhile Research & Consulting, Dr. Wertheim now specializes in analyzing and addressing bias at work.

Find Suzanne Here:

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Website

Book

About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

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Transcript
Kim Clark:

Welcome back everybody. Well, I have the

Kim Clark:

honor of bringing in a guest that her work, my work, our work

Kim Clark:

is quite complimentary. So you're gonna find that pretty

Kim Clark:

much everything you need for dei communications and applying it

Kim Clark:

to your work on a daily basis is going to be wrapped up in this

Kim Clark:

conversation right here. So let's get into it. Please, Dr.

Kim Clark:

Susan Wirthlin, please introduce yourself, and then we'll get

Kim Clark:

into the questions.

Suzanne Wertheim:

Sure. My name is Suzanne worth time, I am

Suzanne Wertheim:

currently sitting in Oakland, California. I am the CEO of

Suzanne Wertheim:

worthwhile research and consulting, where I apply social

Suzanne Wertheim:

science and My academic background to real world

Suzanne Wertheim:

problems in the workplace, in particular problems of bias, but

Suzanne Wertheim:

not always.

Kim Clark:

You have a very particular expertise in language

Kim Clark:

as a linguist. So how did you get into that work, and you also

Kim Clark:

have a new book coming out. So tell us about the book as well.

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So it's a little bit roundabout how I got into the

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work, but people find it interesting. So I'm gonna go a

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little deeper than you might have expected. When I graduated

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college, I had student debt, like many people, and I

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graduated into a recession, and I ended up with my English

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degree, as a technical writer in tech. And I was so disrespected,

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and my mind and abilities were so disrespected. I felt like so

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much of the time, men in tech were like, boop, boop, boop,

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boop, boop, and just ignoring me, then I became filled with

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fear. And I was like, How can I get men to listen to me and I

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literally got a PhD. I'm like, if I'm their professor, they

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have to listen. So that was how I got into linguistics was

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actually addressing bias in tech, which is very funny,

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because I'm like, Oh, I'm full circle, like the 12 years I was

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away from Jack, things actually got worse and a lot of respects.

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So I come in now with inside knowledge. So in grad school, I

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ended up specializing in a few kinds of linguistics, but I was

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really much more grammatically focused. And I was very

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interested in endangered languages. So I lived in Russia

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for a year studying how people were speaking. And I was so

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curious about why when you have two languages in contact, does

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the dominant fancy language almost never change its

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structure. But the minority language that's maybe

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stigmatized, maybe contracting, ends up changing its grammar a

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lot. And I didn't expect the answer to be what it was, which

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was context, human context, human interactions. So in order

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to write my dissertation, I had to teach myself so much about

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the social meaning of language, what goes on in the

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conversation? How does it relate to power structures? How does it

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relate to the larger context? I thought I was writing a grammar

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dissertation, and it ended up with me in my field of

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linguistic anthropology. So I taught Linguistic anthropology

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at various places. I was at Northwestern, I was at

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University of Maryland doing research for the government,

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where I had top secret clearance, which is not as

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exciting as you would think. It's cool. I was at I was. Yeah,

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it's pretty cool. It was, it was weird. They didn't ask the right

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questions for my, they didn't ask the right questions for my

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getting that security clearance. So for example, they didn't find

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out that I was one person away from a whole bunch of Chechen

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warlords, that was much more interesting than I thought then,

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what kind of public transit I took when I was in cities that I

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visited. So yeah, okay. So I was at UCLA, and I started

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consulting, again, for tech, because I wanted enough money to

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buy a house and Professor ing wasn't going to do it. And then

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I got so frustrated with how much useful knowledge was locked

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behind academic doors, and how usefully it could be applied to

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so many different situations to help people who shouldn't have

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to take a college course to get access to really useful stuff

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that I left, and I started my own company in 2011. And so

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that's how I ended up working on bias in the workplace, which is

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a great application for my field of linguistic anthropology makes

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a lot of things transparent to me that are very opaque to other

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people. Because I got a toolkit that gives me X ray vision.

Kim Clark:

Excellent, excellent. And, and all of this led to your

Kim Clark:

up and coming book.

Unknown:

Yes. Up and coming very soon. It's out October 3. So,

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um, yes. So there were a lot of reasons why I wrote the book. So

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many people like why did you write the book I'm like, my

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clients kept on asking me to like, it's kind of basic, but I

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really wanted people. People came to me for two reasons. The

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first was that there were problems in their workplace

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because people were saying problematic things. Right. So

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they were just saying Things that were problematic in

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different ways that I ended up delineating in the book. But

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then also people would come to me because they would say, I

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want to do better, especially in 2020. Right? Suddenly, there was

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this great awakening where a lot of people were like, Oh, I think

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there's stuff happening in the world that I don't know about.

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And my good intentions might not be good enough. This is when

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there started to be a lot of talk about ally work, how can I

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do ally work? How can I make the world better? How can I make my

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good intentions have good impact, and people realize that

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language is so complicated, and the resources out there were so

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confusing, and they couldn't understand how to take this list

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of words and apply them to another list of words that they

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said, alright, what can you do to help? And so I was like, I'll

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come to the rescue. And I put on my author, cape, and I wrote a

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book that I think will solve a lot of problems for a lot of

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different kinds of people. It's reverse engineered for the

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biggest problems that I see. The book was designed, not what I

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think is interesting, but like people needed the most the

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people who come to

Kim Clark:

me, I hear that, I hear that. And so you're well

Kim Clark:

known on LinkedIn, for talking about language and inclusive

Kim Clark:

language. So the title of your book is the inclusive language

Kim Clark:

Field Guide. Correct. And so, so it's, it's, it's going to be

Kim Clark:

practical in nature is what I'm gathering by that title. And so

Kim Clark:

please help us understand what inclusive language is, how do

Kim Clark:

you define it?

Unknown:

Sure. Actually, I want it. Let me just talk about Field

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Guide for a minute. There. They were, it took a long time, I'm

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sure you had the same problem takes a long time to find a

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title of a book, right? Yeah. And for me, inclusive language

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is related to why I called it a field guide. Because a field

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guide sets up a scenario and in the book, I talk about the

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scenarios that are invoked by words, right, I get scientific

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about it, inclusive language, and a field guide sets up a

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scenario where the world is complicated and diverse. So I

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hike, I have a field of wildflower guide, I've got a

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birding guide, I know that the world out there is complicated.

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And there are principles and patterns and behaviors that are

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interesting to me that without an expert's guidance, I can't

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figure it out on my own. But it's a positive thing that I

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want to learn. And that's how I'm setting up this book, right?

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It's not a blame and shame. It's not a viewer a bad person. It's

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saying the world is really complicated and really diverse.

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And there are patterns and behaviors that are linked that

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you might not recognize. But let me give you this guide. Right.

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And so that leads me into the idea of inclusive language,

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because many people think that it's just choosing a correct

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word. And I am using linguistic science to go deeper and say,

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Actually, we really have to find what those patterns are those

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skeletal under structures, those behaviors that link them, and

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then we can do a good job. So let me tell you that I'm going

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to be a little bit negative and say, inclusive language is not

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problematic language. So there's lots of names that people give,

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they'll say, oh, it's racist, or homophobic or transphobic.

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Honestly, they might be right. But in my experience, that kind

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of language is not productive. If you want people to really

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assess what they're doing, and change it. When people feel

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shamed. When people feel blamed, they'll often shut down and

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it'll feel like touching a hot stove or something unpleasant.

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So the book is really designed to be like, Hey, we're all

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coming into this bias. Most of you haven't had the benefit of

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the incredible training that I got, and the luxury of all the

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time to do all the research that I've done. Let me give you

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information to benefit you. So you can avoid language that

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makes people feel like they haven't been seen that they

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haven't been heard that they're not valued, that they haven't

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been taken into consideration. That's what problematic

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languages and inclusive language is the flip side, inclusive

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language is word choice and beyond that makes people feel

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seen, heard, valued, understood, taken into consideration.

Kim Clark:

And so how do you handle that pushback of people

Kim Clark:

who want to use the term inclusive language as a

Kim Clark:

weaponization to create polarization by or it's just

Kim Clark:

their misunderstanding of it and they feel defensive and lashing

Kim Clark:

out and saying things like oh your tone policing or you know

Kim Clark:

you and your political correctness and and identity

Kim Clark:

politics, etc. So how do you handle when especially for us

Kim Clark:

communicators when we are rolling out inclusive language,

Kim Clark:

we're trying to role model it maybe we have an inclusive

Kim Clark:

language guide, you know, that we want to put out there then we

Kim Clark:

get this kind of feedback kind of RMS on how to handle those

Kim Clark:

conversations.

Unknown:

So I've got two things in the book that come directly

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From conversations with people who were having exactly that

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problem, and let me briefly summarize them for you. The

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first was from a dei practitioner. I used to be on a

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listserv that then converted to not a listserv. So now I don't

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get as many good questions as I used to. But this person was

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having a problem because she was diversifying the calendar for

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her company, which has multiple locations, some of which were in

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the Bay Area, which has accepted certain things more than some

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other areas. Although, here in the Bay Area, we're not nearly

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as perfect as many people think I gazillion stories of terrible

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things that have been said and done here. So. But anyway, so

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she was diversifying the calendar and putting in things

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like Diwali, and Women's History Month and Hispanic Heritage

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Month and all of these things. And she got pushback from

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people. And so she wrote to the listserv, and she said, How do I

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respond, I feel really stumped. And so I wrote back a thing. And

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it was my first time publicly talking about this concept

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outside of the client base, which is called masking

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language. I said, the problem is people are using what I call

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masking language, to pretend that their particular

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perspective, their particular viewpoint, is objective is

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neutral is universal. They're saying, things are just fine.

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And I'm thinking, your masking language is hiding that things

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are just fine for some of the people, but they're not fine for

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all of the people. So people who read my book, if there's masking

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language being used, they can use they can identify it, and

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then push back. And so here's the problem. You're using this

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term. So for this particular example, it was the idea of an

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objective calendar. And I'm like, dude, a calendars.

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Christian, right? This is a Christian calendar, you get

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Christmas off, you get Easter off, you get Sunday off. So what

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if you're not Christian? What if you want to? What if you want to

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take a Friday morning to go to mosque? What if you want to take

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off early Friday evening, to make your Shabbos? Dinner? What

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if you need to take off for Diwali? To go home to your

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parents? You know, why do you have to take personal days and

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somebody else doesn't. AD and BC are Christian. So there's so

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many ways that this objective American calendar is actually a

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dominant group calendar. So that was the first one. I don't know

Unknown:

if you've got any questions you want to I don't want to get only

Unknown:

Oh,

Kim Clark:

yeah, I'll add to your example that, you know,

Kim Clark:

whenever I, you know, often get the question of like, you know,

Kim Clark:

sometimes, you know, people want to challenge me, like, where do

Kim Clark:

you find bias in communications? Like, well just look at your

Kim Clark:

company calendar. You know, it's like, what are we operating

Kim Clark:

from? You know, this is? Let's start there. Right? You know, to

Kim Clark:

your point. Okay, let's go to the next example you have?

Unknown:

Well, and I'll say from that, that's one of the gifts of

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the anthropology side of linguistic anthropology is one

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of the four branches of anthropology. And it really is

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focusing on the relationship between language and culture,

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and how language is culture. But there's a thing where, once you

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start studying what's called cultural variability, right, or

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cross compare cross cultural data, you start to see that a

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lot of people, there's a lot of things in somebody's world that

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they think are normal, or natural, or just the way how it

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is, like a, like a natural principle, like gravity or water

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flows downhill, but they're not they're culturally constructed,

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and water is going to flow downhill across the globe. But

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your calendar is not everybody's calendar, right? You know, and

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so there are a lot of things that feel very normal or natural

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right now we're interrogating as a society in the US the idea

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that gender is a binary, which other cultures have known for a

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very long time, gender is not a binary, they've gotten

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terminology, you know, and then the Nazis burned down some

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important research centers in Vienna. So we got set back,

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European and American research got set back a long time. So

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we're finally come to coming to terms with that. Okay, so

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there's masking language, and then I'll say a second thing in

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the book is, my first principle is reflect reality. So we're

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actually going to reflect reality as much as possible. And

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sometimes it's going to sound harsher than what people think

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is tough stuff. But well, we can get back to that later. The

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second example I have is, a client of mine was VP of Dei, at

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a rather conservative company, that in fact, they ended up

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leaving because that company, kept on being obstructionist,

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with the construct of communications and other things.

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They were trying to roll out the person they reported to stop,

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stop, stop blocked all the time. But at the time, this was early

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in that person's tenure. And they said to me, hmm, I'm

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getting pushed back. And this person has a disabled person in

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their family. So they've got lived experience. That's not

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just academic experience, where they've learned about

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disability, but they've witnessed things that their

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sibling has been called and seen various struggles, etc. So

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they're like, I'm trying to get as better and roll out better

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disability terminology, and I'm getting a lot of pushback.

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People are like, it's just PC. It's just work. What can I tell

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them and I'm like, Ah, I got an answer. Let's drop some science

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on them. So, in linguistics, when you study Historical

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Linguistics and how language changes over time, one of the

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things that you look at his pitch duration, a word becoming

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more negative than it was and people might know the word in

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English pejorative, which means an insult, right just in itself.

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So what happens is, in various cultures, there's always going

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to be stigmatized identities, identities that have our lower

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status that aren't seen as stigmatized in some way. Words

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that are neutral, originally or technical that are used to

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describe people in those groups start to get used negatively,

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that pick up that taste of the stigma, they get very bad

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tasting, and and they end up undergoing what we call semantic

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change. So a word that started out as a descriptor becomes an

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insult. Disability language is filled to the brim with well not

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disability language, but former disability language is filled

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with words that are just insults now, that people I think, don't

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recognize come from a place that was meant to be a descriptor of

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a particular kind of person. Dumb, moron, imbecile, lame.

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Spam as for spastic, even just fast tick is used as a

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pejorative and now I'm gonna say a word that a lot of people

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don't like to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway. And that is

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retarded. Right? So retarded. For my book, I looked up how

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recently my mom used to teach special ed in New York State,

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and I was pretty sure her classroom had the word retarded

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in it, EMR. educable mentally retarded, because it was a

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neutral or a technical term that New York State was using how do

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we get our students into classrooms that are appropriate

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for them? Oh, people who test in this kind of IQ range are gonna

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go to the EMR classroom. So I said, All right, my mom retired

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in 99. When did New York State stop using retarded because it

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was already a pejorative when I was a kid on the schoolyard.

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Right, it was definitely negative, but it was still being

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used as a technical word. Now, it's such a taboo word that

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people will call it the R word. People will sometimes not spell

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it out. And you'll see r and then a bunch of asterisks, and

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then a D. So this shows you parallel to the N word, how

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stigmatize how insulting how taboo, the word has become. New

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York State 2022 2022, they finally signed legislation

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saying, Alright, we have to move away from this term, and we're

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going to move towards intellectual disabilities. Even

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the federal government is not that long ago, I can't remember,

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I'm gonna say five years, eight years, like not that long ago.

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So my answer that I gave to this client of mine was semantic

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change is real. You can document it. And it is one of the reasons

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why it may feel like oh my god, there's another term for these

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people. I mean, let's talk about in this country, how often we've

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changed terminology for black people, black people themselves,

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right? In my lifetime, there have been a range of terms

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because, unfortunately, black people in this country suffer

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from being a stigmatized group in all kinds of ways. And so

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when a word becomes just starts to sound like an insult, you

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have to replace it. Let me end with one thing. My students

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didn't really love 30 Rock the way I did, but I love 30 Rock

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episode where Alec Baldwin is briefly dating Salma Hayek,

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who's a nurse, and Salma Hayek is Lebanese Mexican, but she's

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playing a Puerto Rican woman, right. And I grew up in New York

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and was mistaken for Puerto Rican my whole New York Life.

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And now that I'm in California, everybody thinks I'm Mexican,

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I'm neither. But Alec Baldwin's character says to his

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girlfriend, okay, so what do I call you? And she says, whether

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he can? He says, No, you can say that, but what can I call you?

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Right? And so this very, these very sensitive writers are

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showing that they know that you can use a very technical a

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standard terminology, right, a standard term for people. And it

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can still sound like an insult because of the ways that it's

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being used. So that is one of the main reasons why we need to

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have inclusive communications because we have to reflect the

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reality of semantic change and stigma.

Kim Clark:

Would you mind kind of walking us through the

Kim Clark:

process of what you know about the changing semantics around

Kim Clark:

the term woke? You know, it was just it wasn't it was just a

Kim Clark:

past tense of Wake, right? It was a net neutral term, you

Kim Clark:

know, just like your example. And then the black community

Kim Clark:

decades ago, started utilizing it and saying, You got to stay

Kim Clark:

woke, you got to stay work, which is alert, keep yourself

Kim Clark:

safe. Watch what's going on around you. And then now it has

Kim Clark:

been co opted as a pejorative. So it's gone some route and in

Kim Clark:

other words in from other marginalized groups like queer,

Kim Clark:

you know, has has been taken and then retaken. And so, you know,

Kim Clark:

so kind of help us understand this, this current context of

Kim Clark:

woke, anti woke, because if you just look at the term woke, and

Kim Clark:

if you say anti woke, or I don't want to work for a woke company,

Kim Clark:

you're basically saying you're choosing to be asleep, you're,

Kim Clark:

you're choosing to be unaware, uneducated, whatever it may be,

Kim Clark:

even though, you know, it seems to be a statute kind of term and

Kim Clark:

an ideological alignment kind of term. But if you can you help us

Kim Clark:

understanding that term, and what will it take to take it

Kim Clark:

back?

Unknown:

Of course, you ask a linguist with a lot of

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Historical Linguistics training. And I used to run the the

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world's biggest nonprofits studying language and gender. So

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I'm like, Oh, these edited volumes. I'm like, in the 90s,

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we were talking about this, where the language of feminism

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was taken over by corporations, or by taken over by right wing

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people like this is a trajectory that is documented and is

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common. I'm thinking of I wish I could remember the term but when

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I was young, there was a Virginia Slims ad, where it was

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like taking the language of feminism to say, and you go

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smoke, you know, like, there, there are these things that have

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happened again, and again, again, and again. So the pattern

Unknown:

I'm sorry that I don't have a lot of great examples for this.

Unknown:

But the pattern is again and again, where there's an

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appropriation of a term that's being used in one sense, and

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then it becomes twisted in another sense. This is the

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reverse of what you brought up with queer, which is done by the

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ingroup. And the term that we use for that in linguistics is

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reclamation, where there's a term that's become a pejorative,

Unknown:

and then it becomes reclaimed by people who first use it in group

Unknown:

to I think defang it, right. Like if I say queer, it doesn't

Unknown:

have that flavor of Oh, my God, I'm about to get beaten up by

Unknown:

this dude on the corner yelling queer at me, right. So there are

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all of these ways that there are these different terms that deich

Unknown:

is another one that's being reclaimed. There are a bunch of

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them that are being reclaimed. And that's in group work. That

Unknown:

usually isn't like language engineering, but it's just

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people doing a thing because they want to, because this is

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how human beings joke and use humor to make scary things less

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scary. This is not that this is often I would say, so liberate,

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researched, people who are like spin doctors are paid to take

Unknown:

ideas and transform them. So they become agitating, angry

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making talking points happen, and then they diffuse out to the

Unknown:

population. So I would say one of them is sort of grassroots

Unknown:

and bottom up that in group reclamation, and the other one

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is very much, um, purposeful, for I want to say nefarious. But

Unknown:

I mean, it really is for the various reasons that people want

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an angry, uneducated, fearful populace where people don't

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trust each other. So that's one thing to separate out. So I

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talked about X ray vision before for me, X ray vision is my

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version of when I'm giving workshops, saying woke to

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people, right? So woke and X ray vision are the same thing.

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There's a thing that in your former state, you couldn't see,

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because your eyes were closed in your unconscious, or because

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things were obscured to you because of the fog of culture,

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or you haven't been trained to see through things. And I'm

Unknown:

like, let me give you a superpower. Wilk is like, hey,

Unknown:

you've been asleep, wake up. I mean, the entirety of the movie

Unknown:

Get Out is about this, right? And they call it the sunken

Unknown:

place. So what I've seen is, and people on Black Twitter do a

Unknown:

great job of deconstructing these things. It shows up now to

Unknown:

mean, I would say sort of a synonym when it's being used in

Unknown:

a way that's designed to agitate and denigrate, woke is used to

Unknown:

mean something like, what politically correct used to mean

Unknown:

it's sort of like the new PC, which dismisses things and says,

Unknown:

it's to toe the line, it's to virtue signal, it's to perform

Unknown:

that you care. It's um, it doesn't really have a basis in

Unknown:

reality, it's only because there's a thing that you feel

Unknown:

you have to do because of rude social pressure. And so you're

Unknown:

going to do that thing. And so for example, a thing that

Unknown:

happens is people will talk about woke casting. I've

Unknown:

collected some examples of this. And so people will say, the

Unknown:

like, they're nice things on the internet. Well, there'll be

Unknown:

like, political versus regular, and so everything that's like

Unknown:

white male straight is considered regular. And then

Unknown:

everything that isn't white male straight is considered

Unknown:

political. And it's the same thing with woke. What does it

Unknown:

mean are woke hiring practices? So someone on a What was I on

Unknown:

the other day someone put a comment on something? I get so

Unknown:

many interactions with people who, through the internet or

Unknown:

through workshops, I forget who this woman was. But it was a

Unknown:

black woman who said that at her business school, one of her

Unknown:

professors had said, about diversifying your pipeline when

Unknown:

recruiting, they said, Why are you going to fish in the same

Unknown:

pond? That's so limited, then you're gonna, you know, if

Unknown:

everybody's going for the same pond, you're gonna have to go

Unknown:

lower and lower, like we're going lower in our food chain,

Unknown:

you know, stuff that used to be trash fish is now regular

Unknown:

restaurant fish, right? But if you expand what you're fishing

Unknown:

for, then you can get the best fish from all the different

Unknown:

pawns, right? So that's a very reasonable and logical way to

Unknown:

look at things. So that's the kind of argumentation that

Unknown:

people can be used to say, Well, what about this, I think the

Unknown:

thing you can say to people is, for good faith people, so I

Unknown:

think I've decided with my book is that I don't have the energy

Unknown:

to try to convince people that inclusive language has value. So

Unknown:

if I'm going to interact with you, you have to already be at

Unknown:

the starting point. inclusive language has value. It's not, I

Unknown:

don't care, I'm not going to waste my breath, time, emotional

Unknown:

labor, intellectual labor, and people who are coming in,

Unknown:

genuinely not caring, or aggressive, or very resistant.

Unknown:

I'm like, go educate yourself, like Best of luck. Best of luck.

Unknown:

But for other people who are coming in, and really haven't

Unknown:

had the education that helps them see the world with the

Unknown:

clarity that you see, or I see, because we've had these years,

Unknown:

really rigorously examining how the world works, seeing

Unknown:

patterns, seeing patterns, and then and then fixing them, or

Unknown:

seeing how to address them. Somebody who comes in who just

Unknown:

is like, well, this feels work to me, I don't get it, then you

Unknown:

can work with that person and say, Well, what about this

Unknown:

doesn't feel real, because for me, I'm trying to reflect

Unknown:

reality. And then you can have a discussion that moves people to

Unknown:

a place where I'll say one other thing. In a lot of my workshops,

Unknown:

I've developed vocabulary to describe bias that is granular

Unknown:

and behavior based. It doesn't use identity as a reference. And

Unknown:

it's not high level label. It's very specific. Woke is the kind

Unknown:

of thing that used to be a nice shorthand for an in group. Oh,

Unknown:

be woke might not have noticed this thing, right? Now, it's a

Unknown:

label that gets people to knee jerk, dismiss something. But if

Unknown:

you can get people out of the high level label, and describing

Unknown:

in granular ways in a non accusatory way, help me

Unknown:

understand what this feel like, what this feels unreal to you.

Unknown:

Right? What in this feels like a performance and not like a good

Unknown:

faith effort to improve something? That's, I think, a

Unknown:

way to shift people. But PS like this has been going on forever.

Unknown:

I I wish I wish so badly. For some cranky person writing about

Unknown:

complaining that people are seeing you instead of Thao these

Unknown:

days. Right? I keep on looking like there's so many complaints

Unknown:

about using vai instead of urushi. Right? So many

Unknown:

complaints. I'm like, we did it. We did it. We moved away for

Unknown:

like we started using plural you for a single person hundreds of

Unknown:

years ago. And guess what? You're not complaining? Because

Unknown:

it happened a long time ago. But I'm sure there are

Unknown:

contemporaneous people who are like, yeah, people these days

Unknown:

are so influenced by the French and their vous, you know, like,

Unknown:

I don't want to sound French, I want to sound English. You know,

Unknown:

I'm sure I'm desperate for somebody be going through

Unknown:

archives for the time period and find those complaints because

Unknown:

these kinds of complaints are ongoing. People are resistant to

Unknown:

change. And they often think that change isn't for the

Unknown:

reasons that are addressing problems. They often think that

Unknown:

it's made up, and you got to work through a lot of people's

Unknown:

resistance with science.

Kim Clark:

Thank you. Thank you for that. Right here. I noticed

Kim Clark:

and it was really building up momentum. You probably hate me

Kim Clark:

right now. But the conversation we recorded was so good. We just

Kim Clark:

kept going and going. So we're gonna split it in the sake of

Kim Clark:

your time protecting your time. We're gonna split this

Kim Clark:

conversation into two different episodes. So keep a lookout and

Kim Clark:

find the other half. And the other part of this conversation

Kim Clark:

with this guest I know you're gonna love it.