Organizer, Facilitator, Speaker and professional mentor to Kim Clark, Deborah L. Johnson, also known as "Rev D," is back again for another powerful episode of the Communicate Like You Give a Damn podcast. Not only does Rev D expound on her extensive experience with landmark cases in California supporting the DEI agenda, she also discusses the importance of what makes a good communicator in order for companies to see all that's possible when placing DEI at the forefront of their priorities. She also carefully proposes communicators to self-reflect and understand for themselves what their DEI journey and agenda is when attempting to depolarize and truly step into a company's vision.
About The Guest:
Rev Deborah L Johnson (Rev D) is a dynamic organizer, strategist, facilitator, public speaker, and spoken word artist, known for her ability to bring clarity to complex and emotionally charged issues. As an organizational consultant specializing in cultural diversity, she serves the public, private, non-profit, and military sectors. She is a successful co-litigant in two landmark California civil rights cases, including one setting precedent for the inclusion of sexual orientation in California’s Civil Rights Bill. For her social justice work, she has received numerous lifetime achievement awards.
Author of The Sacred Yes and Your Deepest Intent, Rev Deborah holds a BA from USC in Economics, an MBA from UCLA in Urban Land Economics/Real Estate Finance, a ministerial degree from the Holmes Institute, and an Honorary Doctor of Divinity from Agape University of Leadership and Transpersonal Studies. Her passion is building “The Beloved Community” and healing socio-political/cultural divides. Wherever she goes, including on the 3 shows of her RevDnow podcast channel, Rev Deborah’s message is one of transformation, inclusion, empowerment, and possibility.
A founding member of the Agape International Spiritual Center, Rev Deborah serves with Rev Michael Bernard Beckwith on the Leadership Council of the Association for Global New Thought.
Find Rev D Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
Communicate Like You Give A Damn Podcast
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Rev D, thank you so much for returning to
Kim Clark:communicate like you give a damn. The podcast that is trying
Kim Clark:to get communicators and all those who do content and
Kim Clark:communications in an interpersonal setting to
Kim Clark:understand our role and responsibility in diversity,
Kim Clark:equity and inclusion and and really applying it to our daily
Kim Clark:work. And you and I did a podcast already. And something
Kim Clark:you said to me, after we recorded made it really clear
Kim Clark:that there you're going to be a reoccurring, like CNN
Kim Clark:correspondent, as part of our podcast.
Unknown:So thank you for coming back. And not everyone's going
Unknown:to listen to the episodes, obviously, in order. So I would
Unknown:love for you to introduce yourself, and then we'll get
Unknown:into this new round of content I think people are gonna really
Unknown:get a lot from so Reverend Deborah Johnson, also known as
Unknown:Rev. D now, and also affectionately known as Rev. D.
Unknown:Please introduce yourself. Rev.
Rev. Deborah Johnson:Well, thank you, Kim. It's a pleasure
Rev. Deborah Johnson:to be back. I appreciate the work that you're doing in the
Rev. Deborah Johnson:field as well.
Unknown:Yes, I have been in the field of diversity for over four
Unknown:decades, professionally. And my passion is really about killing
Unknown:divides. I've been all kinds of clients from corporate, from
Unknown:the fortune 500 corporate clients, to nonprofit
Unknown:organizations, public sector, military. And I find that
Unknown:although the environments are different, there are certain
Unknown:fundamentals that are going to be true everywhere. And I've
Unknown:been in the trenches with two landmark court cases in the
Unknown:state of California.
Unknown:Oh, please, you can't leave us hang in there.
Unknown:Tell us more.
Unknown:Well, the first is a case that was won in 1984. That set
Unknown:precedent for the inclusion of sexual orientation in the
Unknown:California Civil Rights Bill. It was actually the first to happen
Unknown:anywhere in the nation, which set the precedent to be able to
Unknown:have things such as marriage equality. And then later in
Unknown:2005, I was also a successful co defendant, this time, in a case
Unknown:against the governor, our former governor in California, Gray
Unknown:Davis, who signed into law on the way out of his recall, the
Unknown:domestic partnerships bill, and there was a challenge to that.
Unknown:And I was able to be part of the successful keeping it in place,
Unknown:which once again, helped to set the precedent for marriage
Unknown:equality. So what I'm hearing is that for Black History Month, or
Unknown:pride month, people should be telling your story, you should
Unknown:be a part of the did you know, and you know about LGBTQ plus
Unknown:history and the intersectionality as well of
Unknown:your identities, you have a variety of identities that
Unknown:really inform your work. And you just gave us just a little tiny
Unknown:sample size of that shows up in actual manifestation of not only
Unknown:advancing visibility, but like you said, logbooks, precedents,
Unknown:that has led to just the right to be out. In general. Yes, sir.
Unknown:Some companies actually would do that, particularly when I worked
Unknown:with various affinity groups within the same organization.
Unknown:Apple, for example, was big with that, were Appalam, the, the
Unknown:LGBTQ group and the women's group and their black affinity
Unknown:group would all pull their resources, you know, together
Unknown:and and bring me in.
Unknown:And now companies are investing. With bigger budgets. However, D
Unknown:AI is still nowhere close to where it needs to be. Because
Unknown:we've seen this recently as we record this in April of 2023,
Unknown:mass layoffs, especially within the DEI field. So if companies
Unknown:had truly put dei into place and embedded it across the
Unknown:organizations, especially since the Great White awakening, from
Unknown:the summer of 2020.
Unknown:The embedding the practice actually has not truly been
Unknown:embraced as of yet because we would not have seen the layoffs
Unknown:at the scale that we have most recently. Now I want to get into
Unknown:language, specifically because that's definitely what we talk
Unknown:about here on this podcast, but there's something that you left
Unknown:me feeling and thinking
Unknown:bout after, when we were done recording the first episode that
Unknown:I've got to dive into here. You said, di doesn't have five
Unknown:years.
Unknown:And I went, just hold that thought, I'm going to schedule
Unknown:you for more time because I, we've got to share what you're
Unknown:thinking about. When you say that statement when you say D
Unknown:doesn't have five years. Tell us more. What are you talking about
Unknown:there? What do you mean?
Unknown:What I mean is that d AI happens within a broader cultural
Unknown:context.
Unknown:And the very legitimacy of the EI and what it stands for, is,
Unknown:in fact, under attack,
Unknown:the work of dei really follows and mirrors the work that we do
Unknown:in the broader society, around democracy and inclusion.
Unknown:We don't have another five years to sit around in the United
Unknown:States in particular, and just see what happens in terms of
Unknown:democracy.
Unknown:There is an eroding that's taking place at the very
Unknown:infrastructures. And part of the danger here in us talking about
Unknown:language, is that there is such a big move out right now, to do
Unknown:misinformation, disinformation, to rewrite history, to not allow
Unknown:the facts and the truth to come out whether it's in the banning
Unknown:of the books or what it is that we're allowed to say, in in
Unknown:schools, the wanting to erase race, as an issue that can even
Unknown:be discussed, let alone defined or measured.
Unknown:I could go on and on. But the culmination of these factors, is
Unknown:leading to such a situation where the legitimacy of doing
Unknown:this kind of work is very fragile right now.
Unknown:And what do we have to do to and who do we need to be? I know
Unknown:that's a big part of your work, is who do we need to be? And
Unknown:what do we need to do to manage through this fragility, and come
Unknown:through to help people see that this work benefits them to the
Unknown:ones who may be hesitant about it or trying to steer focus and
Unknown:investment away from embedding dei in organizations?
Unknown:Well,
Unknown:I think that there's a step that has to happen before that.
Unknown:And the step that I think that has to happen before that is
Unknown:that there needs to be
Unknown:a real, honest, honest conversation within the d i
Unknown:communities itself.
Unknown:I keep saying that there are these parallels, because there
Unknown:are, the DEI doesn't just spring out of nowhere. It is a reaction
Unknown:and a response to what's happening in the broader
Unknown:society. Our corporations or companies are a microcosm of the
Unknown:whole. And what we're attempting to do in our businesses, is to
Unknown:do things a little bit differently than how they're
Unknown:being done in the broader society so that we can be more
Unknown:inclusive so that we can be competitive, so that we can, in
Unknown:fact, have work environments where everybody can flourish.
Unknown:There is a way in which we want to tell our stories, merely
Unknown:within the context of the corporate environment
Unknown:without locating ourselves within the context of a broader
Unknown:societal environment.
Unknown:And taking a look at what's going on in that broader
Unknown:societal environment.
Unknown:How are those issues playing out in our corporate environments?
Unknown:And what's our contribution to it? Not just what is our
Unknown:contribution to
Unknown:making things better. But how Wait, how may we inadvertently
Unknown:been doing things that are at cross purposes? When we talk
Unknown:about language, this is no different than political
Unknown:polling. Where, if you're trying to sell a message, you have to
Unknown:stop for a moment and ask, what message? Are people hearing from
Unknown:you? Not just, what do you think you're saying? What is it that
Unknown:they are hearing?
Unknown:And? And are we picking the issues that really matter to
Unknown:them? You know, are we languaging it in the ways that
Unknown:they can understand and perhaps buy in and, and support us?
Unknown:And I'm saying this very firmly, because I find in the DEI field,
Unknown:we're operating almost like, we're right.
Unknown:We're right, we have the right message, we know what we're
Unknown:doing. There's just something wrong with all of them that they
Unknown:don't get it.
Unknown:And what do I need to do to help them see the light and see
Unknown:through my eyes.
Unknown:But a good communicator
Unknown:is going to learn how to see through the eyes of the ones
Unknown:that they're talking to.
Unknown:They're going to be taking that into consideration, and looking
Unknown:to see where is there the common ground? Where might we have
Unknown:divergent opinions,
Unknown:but paying particular attention to ways in which we may be at
Unknown:cross purposes with ourselves? And just as in the social
Unknown:political environment, those cracks, those weaknesses get
Unknown:exploited?
Unknown:So for those who have the agenda of eradicating,
Unknown:undermining, or at least
Unknown:neutralizing
Unknown:the work of Dei, because it serves their larger social
Unknown:political agendas. Okay.
Unknown:The pushback is not just about the company, pushback is a
Unknown:reflection of what's happening in the broader society. Just
Unknown:like the advocacy isn't just about the company, the advocacy
Unknown:is about what's happening in the broader society.
Unknown:And if we don't kind of wake up and smell the coffee,
Unknown:and locate ourselves within this larger context,
Unknown:I'm really concerned that we're going to look up in a few years
Unknown:and find that the fundings Not there.
Unknown:Not only is the funding not going to be there, but the
Unknown:environment would have flipped so that we won't even be allowed
Unknown:to have the conversations anymore.
Unknown:And that's all because D I didn't work.
Unknown:So they didn't feel the need to continue with the investment.
Unknown:Not because it didn't work necessarily.
Unknown:You know, that's like saying
Unknown:the voter registration laws or the voting stuff didn't work.
Unknown:No, it worked. It worked well.
Unknown:We did not have a stolen election. In fact, the last
Unknown:presidential election was the safest that we've ever had.
Unknown:But just because you're doing well, doesn't mean you're going
Unknown:to be supported.
Unknown:Just because you're doing well doesn't mean you're going to be
Unknown:liked.
Unknown:If you're doing well flies in the face of a broader agenda
Unknown:that actually doesn't want you to be successful.
Unknown:And I feel like we're not
Unknown:coming to grips with that.
Unknown:That there's this assumption that any kind of pushback is
Unknown:just out of ignorance,
Unknown:as opposed to strict
Unknown:eject dismantling
Unknown:How can communicators step up?
Unknown:In this space? I look at the experiment that I did with Chad
Unknown:GPT, where I just basically typed in, right a company
Unknown:diversity statement, and in less than 30 seconds, it spit out a
Unknown:diverse commitment statement, a diversity statement that I could
Unknown:apply to any company, because Chachi Beatty just pulls from
Unknown:what's out there. So what's out there is what I see in the
Unknown:results in that search. It says Insert company name in the chat
Unknown:GBT
Unknown:version in less than 30 seconds.
Unknown:putting together something that I see a lot of companies have
Unknown:spent, you know, many rewrites and many months in order to get
Unknown:approved. And it's not meaningful in any way, shape or
Unknown:form. There's not a and we touched on this. And the first
Unknown:time that we talked where there isn't a compelling vision, there
Unknown:isn't a story of, of Dei, that's been very well articulated. So
Unknown:many of us are kind of rudderless. And why we are doing
Unknown:d i and it's the communicators that can really tell that story
Unknown:in a compelling way. And in a specific way, that shift from
Unknown:vague to specificity is something I work with, with
Unknown:clients all the time because they don't see it. So many
Unknown:communicators, the vast majority, I can't remember the
Unknown:statistics lately, I know I've seen them as high as 83% of the
Unknown:roles of communications within organizations are taken by
Unknown:people who look like me. And we don't necessarily understand
Unknown:what the eye is, we don't actually know what that work is.
Unknown:There's there's a great education, ramp and learning
Unknown:curve for us to actually know what that work is, in order for
Unknown:us to go, Oh, now I get it, or at least I get it better than I
Unknown:did yesterday, and two weeks before that, and three years
Unknown:ago. So now the way I'm showing up in how I'm telling the story
Unknown:and wanting to revamp and seeing that the commitment statement is
Unknown:too vague. It's a list of activities. It's like camp, if
Unknown:you if you read, if you read like a diversity report by most
Unknown:companies, it's a list of activities that we want merit
Unknown:badges for, rather than meaningful impact, to shift the
Unknown:organization in a meaningful way where it benefits everybody. So
Unknown:this storytelling, the language that we use the picture that we
Unknown:can create the visit that compelling vision, but also
Unknown:reporting on what we do what a communicators need to shift, and
Unknown:truly understand in our power of that language and storytelling
Unknown:in order to step up in this work, and not end up.
Unknown:Like you have warned us that we can because of this strategic
Unknown:dismantling that's going on in the larger societal realm
Unknown:there's a saying there's a reason why God gave us two ears
Unknown:and only one mouth.
Unknown:Because we're supposed to listen
Unknown:twice as much as we speak.
Unknown:The
Unknown:the
Unknown:word I'm looking for.
Unknown:The encouragement that I'm saying here
Unknown:is not so much that we haven't been saying enough in the eye.
Unknown:We haven't been listening
Unknown:enough in Dei.
Unknown:We have to be listening
Unknown:is the point that I'm making,
Unknown:that
Unknown:there's a tendency to want to write off
Unknown:those who are not in agreement or those who are not in
Unknown:alignment,
Unknown:to marginalize them in the same way that dei people are there to
Unknown:stop other people from being marginalized. So we're just kind
Unknown:of playing tic for tat, in whose turn it is to be marginalize is
Unknown:what I'm saying
Unknown:and
Unknown:The D I work is not going to be successful unless you are in
Unknown:partnership,
Unknown:like real partnership.
Unknown:Otherwise, it's not going to work.
Unknown:And
Unknown:the uplifting of the marginalized populations
Unknown:should be a means to an ends, and not an end in and of itself.
Unknown:And I think too often we have positioned dei as though that is
Unknown:the end, like uplift these people
Unknown:give them some opportunity, the end, like we've, we've, we've
Unknown:done our work.
Unknown:But the uplifting
Unknown:is for the purpose of us all being together, and all being
Unknown:included, which involves every one.
Unknown:And I'm not so sure that the vision of all D I really
Unknown:includes every one,
Unknown:we have gotten to the point, unfortunately, where the word
Unknown:diversity, as a communicator quite often becomes a code word
Unknown:for non white.
Unknown:Or, you know, anything other than white male, or anything
Unknown:other than straight white male.
Unknown:So this pushback, particularly when you are in an environment,
Unknown:where
Unknown:white, straight men are not perceiving themselves as
Unknown:advantage,
Unknown:not perceiving themselves as privileged. Whether it's true or
Unknown:not. But I'm saying is that the self perception is not that. And
Unknown:there's no real conversations going on anywhere
Unknown:about that.
Unknown:So we're doing this.
Unknown:We're doing this, I believe, in our last conversation, I gave
Unknown:the analogy of a family that is expanding.
Unknown:And if you have
Unknown:a new baby that comes into the family, of course, the new baby
Unknown:is going to get a lot of attention. But the 12 year old,
Unknown:the 13 year old is going to be wondering, well, what about me.
Unknown:And then when they get 16 and 17, it's not that they don't
Unknown:love their five year old brother or sister or or care about them.
Unknown:But in their minds, they're feeling as though somehow or
Unknown:another, the parents attention has gotten siphoned off, and
Unknown:that the younger brother or sister is favored.
Unknown:So a lot of what I see labeled sometimes as racism.
Unknown:I'm not saying that there isn't some of that in there.
Unknown:But it could equally be described as sibling rivalry.
Unknown:It's sibling rivalry,
Unknown:kind of this, who's favored?
Unknown:Who's valued?
Unknown:And has that been our message
Unknown:in fact that
Unknown:everybody's valued.
Unknown:And that no one is actually more important than another.
Unknown:This is why I say that.
Unknown:I think there have to be these conversations within ourselves.
Unknown:About what are we doing?
Unknown:You know, what is our message?
Unknown:What do people think that we stand for?
Unknown:And have we created a vision
Unknown:that's big enough
Unknown:to involve everyone
Unknown:It's often a lack of imagination.
Unknown:And I was, you know that I'm in the process of moving my dad out
Unknown:of state, he, he's been in the same place for 34 years, and
Unknown:it's it his age, almost 77, this is a big huge change. So
Unknown:we were driving 14 hours, and I was watching a lot of traffic
Unknown:coming on and off the freeway. And I had this thought of these
Unknown:two cars that we were making room for the car that was coming
Unknown:on. And then there was somebody, another car, who didn't lose
Unknown:their space, I didn't lose my space, I needed to move slow
Unknown:down a little bit, in order to safely have the person come in
Unknown:front of me, the other person, you know, stayed at their speed,
Unknown:there was just room. So when you have an abundance mindset, di is
Unknown:possible. Right? And then whatever we can systematize we
Unknown:can put in structures and institutions and stuff, it
Unknown:becomes probable.
Unknown:But first, we start with the possible it's possible. And I
Unknown:know you're a big, you know, one of your one of the things that
Unknown:you really teach is about this, the power of possibility. And
Unknown:being that place of possibility. In our, in our conversation
Unknown:today as communicators really being that place of possibility
Unknown:for us to make room for anybody who's entering and exiting. But
Unknown:everybody still has their role. Everybody is still there, maybe
Unknown:we have to adjust our speed a little bit. However, we're all
Unknown:there in order to get to where we want to go. And there's an
Unknown:alignment there. You know, there's a story that you've told
Unknown:me
Unknown:a few times when you were doing a corporate diversity training
Unknown:at a very large company. And you got into this discussion, I
Unknown:believe you were the trainer, and there's someone in the
Unknown:audience that was kind of challenging you around the
Unknown:marriage equality, conversation. Do you remember the story? Okay,
Unknown:can you can you recite the story for folks, and it's that that
Unknown:ending, aha, and how you
Unknown:named the interaction, and the motivation of the audience
Unknown:member, that you kind of, you put a name to it. And I think
Unknown:it's incredibly profound and something that I think
Unknown:communicators would benefit from an understanding that hesitancy,
Unknown:even the pushback, etc, that they may be experiencing
Unknown:specifically from leaders?
Unknown:Well, it's interesting that you should ask me about this. Um, I
Unknown:just included it in one of my podcasts. Within the last month
Unknown:or two.
Unknown:I did the podcast with Dr. Anita Sanchez, one of my colleagues,
Unknown:and it was kind of a trip down memory lane asking her did she
Unknown:remember that moment? Because I was doing this work under her
Unknown:banner, okay, or with her husband. Their firm is called
Unknown:scientists tennis. And I was one of their associates for many,
Unknown:many years. So we're at this large tech company, this
Unknown:particular event happened in Oregon, if I'm not mistaken,
Unknown:everybody know, it was Colorado, in particular, because this was
Unknown:when Colorado was the first state to really get knee deep
Unknown:into the marriage equality issue.
Unknown:This particular training was with only management. So they
Unknown:were coming in from all over the place. At the time, my role
Unknown:within the training was to discuss issues in regards to the
Unknown:LGBTQ community. As far as employment goes, there was the
Unknown:company was coming out supportive of domestic
Unknown:partnerships, and they were coming out to be supportive of
Unknown:whatever it was that needed to happen within the broader
Unknown:society to have the relationships between same sex
Unknown:couples legitimize this was making one particular manager
Unknown:very, very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. And I noticed I
Unknown:pick pardon, while he was a straight white male, middle
Unknown:aged.
Unknown:Yes
Unknown:professed
Unknown:Christian,
Unknown:devout Christian by his own, you know, definition, and his
Unknown:frustration was frustrating me
Unknown:So I knew enough to just stop for a moment. And I did when I'm
Unknown:suggesting I listened. So I just stepped back.
Unknown:And I gave him the floor.
Unknown:And I said,
Unknown:what you just said was, you don't have anything personally
Unknown:against gay people, you would never do anything to hurt or
Unknown:harm, discriminate against them, hold them back, give them lesser
Unknown:assignments on your teams, or anything like that.
Unknown:You believe that people should be able to be in whatever kind
Unknown:of relationships that they want to be in. But you cannot get
Unknown:behind the company
Unknown:endorsing domestic partnerships, because you feel that isn't an
Unknown:encroachment upon your understanding of marriage, which
Unknown:is in the domain of a male and a female, according to your
Unknown:religious beliefs, that this policy goes up against your
Unknown:religious belief. For that reason, you'll cooperate with it
Unknown:if you have to, but you can't really wholeheartedly support
Unknown:it. And because you don't support it, you don't want to be
Unknown:considered anti diversity.
Unknown:And he just,
Unknown:it was like, somebody took the, the weight right off his
Unknown:shoulders, and he to sit? Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying. And
Unknown:I said, you know, I get it.
Unknown:At this particular point in time, we were just in shock. And
Unknown:all in Iraq, wasn't too long after 911.
Unknown:Supposedly, they had these weapons of mass destruction that
Unknown:nobody could find, right?
Unknown:So I said to him, I get it.
Unknown:I said, because there is no amount of training in the world,
Unknown:to convince me that shot in all is okay. I am not against the
Unknown:military. I don't want to do anything that's gonna hurt the
Unknown:military. I'm fine with the military. But just because I
Unknown:don't support all of my nation's foreign policy. And I don't want
Unknown:to be considered unpatriotic, for doing that.
Unknown:And at this moment,
Unknown:we both were standing. And we just looked at each other, and
Unknown:we migrated to each other, we hug and we both actually started
Unknown:to cry.
Unknown:Amazing, something broke, he didn't change his mind. I didn't
Unknown:change my mind. But the conflict stopped, because the conflicts
Unknown:are never about differences. It's the polarization around the
Unknown:differences.
Unknown:And when we depolarize,
Unknown:we could step into that vision that we had of what the company
Unknown:could be.
Unknown:You saw him, you heard him, you valued him. And you found that
Unknown:connection with him.
Unknown:And it's that listening, like you were talking about the two
Unknown:years, one mouth, that's the main thing that I'm trying to
Unknown:say is that everybody has to be valued. And even just in your
Unknown:analogy that you were making about on the road, and can we
Unknown:make room for the new people who were like coming in?
Unknown:But can we also make sure that the ones that were already on
Unknown:the road
Unknown:are also feeling seen and valued, like their journeys are
Unknown:just as important?
Unknown:As want everyone to take a breath for a second year,
Unknown:because this is really big.
Unknown:This is something that's going to take some time to process. I
Unknown:mean, every time I heard you hear you share that example, I
Unknown:met another level of process with that. Is it that example or
Unknown:a different example of a time where you talk about making
Unknown:space for fighting for their right to believe what they
Unknown:believe in? Oh, yeah.
Unknown:You're speaking of a debate that I was in at the
Unknown:San Francisco club. This was also around the issue of
Unknown:marriage equality.
Unknown:This particular guy was a Muslim guy with seven children, a
Unknown:Muslim leader. And let me be more specific, we were clergy.
Unknown:And he was very, very anti.
Unknown:Same sex marriage, marriage equality.
Unknown:So at the end of the whole thing I said to him, you know, I think
Unknown:you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong. I said, this is clear. I
Unknown:said, but that's not the real difference between us. Our
Unknown:stance on marriage equality, that's not our difference. I
Unknown:said, Let me tell you what our real difference is. I said, our
Unknown:real difference is that I will forever fight
Unknown:for your right to say I'm wrong.
Unknown:You just want to silence me.
Unknown:That's what I told him.
Unknown:I think this is another podcast episode, talking about this. And
Unknown:you were talking, you're alluding into it earlier of just
Unknown:kind of this
Unknown:power dynamic, the power struggle, you are putting your
Unknown:fists together and having them pushed against each other. And
Unknown:that it's it's a, it's a, it's a shifting of the power struggle
Unknown:and the power dynamic, which we see played out in corporations
Unknown:at all levels. And I think what those two examples that you just
Unknown:shared, are things that us as communicators really need to
Unknown:take some time to really process and see where we are. Not making
Unknown:space, not valuing
Unknown:where we just want to power forward, rather than bring
Unknown:people with us is not part of the definition of leadership is
Unknown:like, you know, turning around and looking to see if anyone's
Unknown:behind you. Anything you want to speak to that and your closing
Unknown:thoughts.
Unknown:I have a series out called Letters from the infinite.
Unknown:They're just these divine downloads that I get in the form
Unknown:of letters it's published by sounds true. And there is a
Unknown:definition that's given of a religion. And what religious
Unknown:edicts if there are any, like what those should be principles,
Unknown:and I think it applies to Dei.
Unknown:It said that any kind of religious laws should should be
Unknown:like traffic laws.
Unknown:They don't tell you where to go.
Unknown:They just ensure that everybody can arrive safely at their own
Unknown:destination without interfering with each other's journeys. Oh,
Unknown:damn, this is good, keep going.
Unknown:I'll say it again.
Unknown:That I believe that dei should be like this definition that was
Unknown:given about religious laws, said religious laws should be like
Unknown:traffic laws.
Unknown:And this is what I think di needs to be. It doesn't tell you
Unknown:where to go.
Unknown:It just ensures that each and every person can arrived safely
Unknown:at their destination
Unknown:without interfering with each other's journeys
Unknown:take a breath with me listeners.
Unknown:People are going to have some feelings about we just what we
Unknown:just talked about. And I encourage folks to process them
Unknown:to
Unknown:you know, find support. You've got rev DS podcasts that you can
Unknown:listen to. And her books. Tell us about those Rev.
Unknown:Yes, so my podcast you can find on any podcast channel, under
Unknown:REV D. Now I have a rev D now channel that has three podcasts
Unknown:shows on it.
Unknown:And by books you can find online. The sacred Yes, and your
Unknown:deepest intent, both in the letters from the infinite
Unknown:series. And those are the kinds of books that you don't like,
Unknown:right, you know, go from the beginning. It's one of those
Unknown:that you just kind of open up and just just see see where
Unknown:you're led to see what needs to be spoken to you in
Unknown:In that moment, for sure, and I do coaching,
Unknown:you know, and as well as you know, continual continual,
Unknown:you know, consulting, as well as ongoing training, because, you
Unknown:know, when one time training doesn't work, so you have to do
Unknown:it on a regular basis, but also embedding it within our
Unknown:communication policies and processes, our editorial
Unknown:workflow, all of the things, one of the other sayings that rev D
Unknown:has is that,
Unknown:and I've, you know, and to put communicators spin on it, it's
Unknown:that, you know, whatever you want is, the result has to be a
Unknown:part of the process, which I believe you shared in our first
Unknown:podcast. So if you want di communications as a result, and
Unknown:di Communications has to be a part of the process doesn't
Unknown:magically happen without it intentionally built into our
Unknown:systems and processes. So we're gonna keep talking, we're gonna
Unknown:have you back as our our correspondent, to, to di
Unknown:communications, thank you for your generous sharing, please
Unknown:support Rev. D. And all that she does follow her, engage with
Unknown:her. But don't, don't brush this away what you heard in this
Unknown:podcast episode, specifically, or any, any, any, anytime that
Unknown:you hear rev D speak, let it sit with you, you get mad at it,
Unknown:punch in the air about it. Because another one of her
Unknown:sayings is, maybe we'll talk about this in a future podcast,
Unknown:but the whole idea of feel DL, he'll
Unknown:and famous musicians have even put that on a slide while they
Unknown:are on concert and in tour. And so this is something and Oprah,
Unknown:you know, talked about it because of a young love and that
Unknown:quoting you, during one of her major shows that she's done. So
Unknown:it's out there in the world, but you need to know that it's rev D
Unknown:that talks about these things. And they're profound. And just
Unknown:imagine I've been mentoring, I've been mentoring under her
Unknown:for 20 years. We're recording this in April and 2023. And
Unknown:we've known each other for 19 years, it was April 2004. When
Unknown:we first met, and I knew what I was getting into then, and I've
Unknown:changed my life, you've changed 1000s of lives. And then because
Unknown:of that ripple effect, it has improved millions of lives. So
Unknown:thank you for your work and your legacy.
Unknown:Well, thank you, Kim. And
Unknown:you know, I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm not saying that
Unknown:any one person has the answer. What I'm saying is that we need
Unknown:to engage in the conversation.
Unknown:I love the way that Lynne twist puts it. Another one of my
Unknown:colleagues who also has endorsed my work. She says the problem is
Unknown:not our on answered questions. It's our unquestioned answers.
Unknown:So much that I have to process through just this conversation.
Unknown:On ongoing Oh, Rev. D, thank you so much. Thank you for being
Unknown:back and for gifting your knowledge. We have a transcribed
Unknown:dinner conversation that I turned into an article, and we
Unknown:will put it in the show notes. It's talking about understanding
Unknown:the DEI backlash. And so y'all need to go a little deeper on
Unknown:this work. So we're going to include a link to that article
Unknown:for you to learn more. And I have done trainings and speaking
Unknown:engagements based on that article, people are like, talk
Unknown:to us more about what that looks like and feels like and I bring
Unknown:that article and reference it throughout and turn it into a
Unknown:real you know, in real life kind of experience for people to work
Unknown:through because we have to have these conversations. We have to
Unknown:talk about this. The fastest way is through, not under not
Unknown:running away, not blocking
Unknown:the facet and it's only forward from here. Thank you rev D for
Unknown:leading this work and for the last several decades of leading
Unknown:this work and all the different ways that you have my pleasure.