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In this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn Kim Clark interviews her friend and Professor of RTVF at San Jose University, Kimb Massey. Kimb has taught media for half of her career and believes we are all part of a culture; family, vocational, fandom etc. Massey challenges us to think about our media consumption and pay attention to the fact that a lot of what we want is because the media tells us what we want. We must make sure our intention matches our impact and use our critical thinking skills in the discussion around the visibility of race in the mass media. It is not enough to be non-racist - we must be anti-racist.
About The Guest:
Kimberly Massey, Ph.D. (she/her) is a Professor of Radio-Television-Film (RTVF) at San Jose State University. She is a tireless advocate for media reporting and representation of truth, fairness, and diversity, equity, inclusion. Dr. Massey has written numerous communication conference papers and published several communication articles, books, and book chapters.
Find Kimb Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
Her career spans documentary filmmaking, agency partnerships with the Discovery Channel, teaching at San Jose State University, and leading global internal communication teams at KLA, PayPal, GoDaddy, and GitHub. She is known for her ability to facilitate sensitive yet urgent conversations to make meaningful progress in creating inclusive workplaces. Kim began integrating DEI into communications beginning in 2004 and it wasn't until the summer of 2020 when her peers starting listening and seeing they have a role and responsibility in DEI and in social justice on behalf of their organizations. As a student of life, she has completed several certifications including DEI Certifications from Yale School of Management & UC Berkeley. Kim is also an NSA Speaker.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
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Yay. Hi, hi. Hi. This is a really special episode for
Kim Clark:me. I have known Dr. Kimberly Massey for 30 years, right, like
Kim Clark:the early 90s. Right? Yeah. And we have find found all kinds of
Kim Clark:excuses to cross paths, personally and professionally.
Kim Clark:And this is one of those opportunities where I can tap
Kim Clark:into your great depth of knowledge as a full professor at
Kim Clark:San Jose State University. And you contributed an article to
Kim Clark:the book that I co authored the conscious communicator. We're
Kim Clark:gonna get to that in just a second. But welcome, thank you
Kim Clark:for being here. Tell it tell us tell everybody a little bit
Kim Clark:about yourself.
Kimb Massey:Well, I'm Kim Massey, I'm a professor at San
Kimb Massey:Jose State, as Kim mentioned, and I'm Kim's professor. So
Kimb Massey:that's really the biggest line on my resume. I've been studying
Kimb Massey:the media thinking about the media and teaching Media and
Kimb Massey:Culture my entire adult life. I studied as an undergrad at UT
Kimb Massey:Austin and got my degree in radio television film there went
Kimb Massey:on to San Francisco State to get a master's in broadcast
Kimb Massey:education, communication, and then on my doctorate in
Kimb Massey:Communication at the University of Utah. So literally my entire
Kimb Massey:adult life, I've been talking about the media.
Kim Clark:And you mentioned the media and culture. So what do
Kim Clark:you mean by that? What relationship Are you are you
Kim Clark:talking about that is super fascinating that you've
Kim Clark:dedicated your whole career to?
Unknown:Well, everybody belongs to culture. And there's a
Unknown:million different kinds of culture, whether you're aware of
Unknown:it or not, there's the culture of a family and what being a
Unknown:father means and a mother or a sister, brother, being a
Unknown:grandmother being a nurse. So there's vocational cultures,
Unknown:there's fandom, like, I'm a big steam fan. So there's a whole
Unknown:culture around stealing, and being a San Francisco Giants
Unknown:fan, or whatever. There's race, culture, nationalist culture,
Unknown:and any one of us all of us are. So there's an amalgam of all
Unknown:these different cultures, based upon where we grew up, or how
Unknown:old we are, or how we were raised, or what our belief
Unknown:system is, which party we vote for whatever it is, maybe we
Unknown:don't vote, that's also a culture. So it's a culture of
Unknown:physical realities, for example, you know, like, what we look
Unknown:like, and what wouldn't, where we live those sort of physical
Unknown:realities, but it's also constructed realities. And that
Unknown:is like, like being a fan or believing in God, or whatever it
Unknown:is, right? So the media more than anything else, on, you
Unknown:know, in all of the cultures all around the world, affects what
Unknown:those cultures are, whenever new ones come on the scene, and what
Unknown:they mean, they define the provide the definitions for what
Unknown:all of these cultures mean. And people will say, well, they
Unknown:don't do they're not the most powerful influence, but they
Unknown:really are the media that we consume, especially as
Unknown:Americans, we consume media more than we do anything else. We
Unknown:consume media more than we sleep, we consume media more
Unknown:than we have dinner with our families, more time than the
Unknown:time we spend with our families. So because we consume and engage
Unknown:in media so much, it is statistically impossible,
Unknown:especially with all the messages coming through the media over
Unknown:and over again, repetitively, the same messages over and over
Unknown:again, for us to not be affected by it. And the challenge is that
Unknown:everybody knows this, but nobody believes it. I've been talking
Unknown:about the same media effects and culture defining what culture is
Unknown:getting people to realize all the different cultures that they
Unknown:belong to, and how some of the cultural rules that they have to
Unknown:follow, they didn't even get to negotiate, especially in
Unknown:diversity, equity and inclusion. They didn't even get to
Unknown:negotiate what it is to be black, or to be seen as black by
Unknown:a white system or whatever it is, right. And even though I
Unknown:tell people you were all affected by media people, like
Unknown:Yeah, but not me so much. I mean, I know I am. So therefore,
Unknown:how effective can I be? And then I have to point out, you know,
Unknown:you're wearing a New York Giants or New York, Yankees hat and
Unknown:those are Nike shoes and you're dressed like a students wear
Unknown:What does that mean? What's appropriate clothing for women
Unknown:to wear, what's not appropriate clothing, you know all of this.
Unknown:And all of a sudden, they begin to realize that they are
Unknown:products of their own cultural upbringings.
Kim Clark:There's a class that you and I have both taught. And
Kim Clark:I know you're you're kind of fading into the sunset, as far
Kim Clark:as your career is concerned as a professor, but I, I teaching
Kim Clark:online now, but there's a class that both you and I have taught,
Kim Clark:that is kind of a it's a GE level, I believe, and people,
Kim Clark:you know, students from all different kinds of majors will
Kim Clark:come in and take this media, it's basic, it's a basic media
Kim Clark:criticism class, right? And a couple of the assignments that
Kim Clark:some of SE th the sections, talk about one is, take a take note
Kim Clark:of all the products that you've consumed in a day, just write
Kim Clark:them all down, and for what purpose and like, what's the
Kim Clark:brand? And then your analysis at the end of that is to say, Okay,
Kim Clark:well, first, you're also supposed to figure out what your
Kim Clark:culture group is. And so Asians don't have the introspection,
Kim Clark:they actually don't know what the assignment is asking of
Kim Clark:them. They've never been asked that question of what culture
Kim Clark:group, they may go to race, they may go to religion, but they're
Kim Clark:advertising in marketing people can, you know, figure out a
Kim Clark:cultural group in a second, they can predict everything around
Kim Clark:the products that that a particular cultural group will
Kim Clark:gravitate towards? Right? That's the science of it. And then the
Kim Clark:analysis is did do you see yourself being marketed to in
Kim Clark:these products, that is one assignment, the following
Kim Clark:assignment is taking an eye challenge, and invite any
Kim Clark:audience member to do this for your own, you know, self
Kim Clark:awareness, to take three days off from media, like take three
Kim Clark:days off, we call it a media diet, and then see where your
Kim Clark:time goes, when you're not scrolling on Instagram, for
Kim Clark:example, when you're, you know, whatever it may be watching
Kim Clark:things on YouTube, etc. And what I find interesting is this
Kim Clark:relationship between those two assignments, what the last
Kim Clark:question in the media diet assignment is around, Willie,
Kim Clark:basically, will you return to your natural Yeah, insistency.
Unknown:Right away, they will far and away, far away, they're
Unknown:very interesting, not affected,
Kim Clark:right. So there's, in those two assignments, were
Kim Clark:trying to drill in critical thinking, right, and you know,
Kim Clark:around exposure, and the normalization of media use and
Kim Clark:the definition of their own cultural group, as defined, and
Kim Clark:by media and advertising and stuff, and they still don't get
Kim Clark:it.
Unknown:What's interesting is that when it first came out,
Unknown:when media, especially television was first invented,
Unknown:there was a lot of concern about media effects, because we had
Unknown:come out of World War Two. And because Hitler had done such an
Unknown:incredible job of PR, right, he would stage these amazing epic
Unknown:events, and then put them as the sort of before the movie shorts
Unknown:with when you would go to the movie theater, and all of these
Unknown:sort of villages that were really remote. But go to
Unknown:everybody went to the movies on Saturday, we've seen these epic
Unknown:events, and we're believing like, oh, well, the whole
Unknown:country field believes this. So it must be like a good thing,
Unknown:you know? With Yes, a whole underground of exceptions. But
Unknown:you can see that why the concern existed is because if you can,
Unknown:if you can win the minds of the public mind, then you could
Unknown:actually start a war or take over the world, right? I mean,
Unknown:and that's just an understatement of what has
Unknown:actually happened, really. But now not so much. I mean, I think
Unknown:if you are feeding your children, and they want to eat
Unknown:ice cream all day long, you say to them, Well, yeah, we can have
Unknown:ice cream, but that's like a dessert. And that's, that's a
Unknown:special and really what we got to do is get to your broccoli,
Unknown:you know, we got to eat some vegetables and some
Unknown:micronutrients and all that and then we can have ice cream. But
Unknown:when it comes to media, people don't seem to understand that
Unknown:every minute that their kids are on, online or on they're
Unknown:consuming, they're consuming something right and most of the
Unknown:messages are put together to sell. Not just to sell you a
Unknown:product like lipstick or mascara or shampoo, but to sell you a
Unknown:meaning. right to sell you what it is to be a beautiful woman
Unknown:for example, Whoa. So so many of my students, whenever they write
Unknown:down, you know, everything they use from the time they wake up
Unknown:to the time they step out the door for women a lot of its
Unknown:makeup. And they have to write in Why do you use this? And they
Unknown:are and their responses are very candid, it makes me feel good.
Unknown:It makes me feel good to look good. And well, who wouldn't
Unknown:feel good if they look good? But then I come back with a question
Unknown:of why is having longer eyelashes attractive? Who to
Unknown:define that? Why is having whiter teeth, or straighter
Unknown:teeth, or pink cheeks? Or any of the other makeup? Things like
Unknown:poreless? I mean, we are human beings, we have hair growing
Unknown:everywhere. And we have, you know, eyelashes that get thinner
Unknown:when you get older and whatever it is. Why, who decided that? I
Unknown:didn't get to negotiate that. I didn't. Nobody ever sat me down.
Unknown:Whenever I was an agent said, Okay, we're taking a vote in
Unknown:your age group, you're 18. Now you can vote. What how fat can
Unknown:women be and still be attract? Nobody ever asked me. I was born
Unknown:into this. And this isn't being driven by people, people. This
Unknown:is being driven by people who are trying to sell products to
Unknown:make you believe that having short eyelashes is less
Unknown:attractive than if you had longer ones. And then you start
Unknown:using mascara. And then you the feedback is that people will go
Unknown:oh, she's you know, she's pretty attractive. And it brings you
Unknown:comfort, safety, satisfaction, and even pleasure from engaging
Unknown:in these activities. You know, I had a conversation with my
Unknown:daughter about monogamy. Right? And her generation think about
Unknown:monogamy differently than my generation. Of course they do. I
Unknown:mean, every generation is different. And she said, Well, I
Unknown:don't I don't really understand, you know, why, like monogamy
Unknown:after monogamy, because then if you get married or divorced, and
Unknown:you remarry you, you're really just a serial monogamist are
Unknown:like that. And I laughed. And I said, because it brings me
Unknown:pleasure. It brings me pleasure to think about only being with
Unknown:one person. And why is that? Because that's the way I was
Unknown:raised. Maybe if I had been raised in a different culture,
Unknown:where I don't know. But I that's what I always believed in. And
Unknown:so that's, you know, I like that, you know, I'm, you know,
Unknown:Tammy Wynette, stand by your man kind of, you know, and I fight
Unknown:it as a feminist. I'm like, I don't need it. And I don't. But
Unknown:whether I need it or not, is irrelevant to my actions,
Unknown:because it's what do I want, and what you want, nine times out of
Unknown:10, if not, 10 times out of 10 is based upon culture. And
Unknown:unfortunately, for the DEI, portion of this conversation,
Unknown:the media and the images and the definitions, and the
Unknown:representations have been dominated by money. And by race.
Unknown:You know, so the same stories are getting told over and over
Unknown:again. Black stories that didn't involve blacks being maids and
Unknown:butlers and servants that help characters or, or sort of
Unknown:characters that were clowns, you know, they're there for the
Unknown:entertainment of, of white people. That didn't happen until
Unknown:the African American community were seen as economically viable
Unknown:people to market to, then all of a sudden, you had sitcoms that
Unknown:were directed to the black community dealing with, you
Unknown:know, talking about black issues, then you had Bill Cosby
Unknown:being a doctor and his wife, a lawyer, then and only then when,
Unknown:when the market was deemed economically viable to be spoken
Unknown:to, then they got a chair at the table. Right.
Kim Clark:And there's a lot of conversation over the last few
Kim Clark:years and still to this day around digital blackface, for
Kim Clark:example, the use of memes and GIFs, and everything, where it's
Kim Clark:this exploitation, exploitation of black joy in a lot of ways,
Kim Clark:but used by white people to seem cooler, etc. And so look it up
Kim Clark:folks, you know, have the conversation, look at what
Kim Clark:you're sharing on social and the cultural culture that you're a
Kim Clark:part of, versus the culture that you're putting out there in a
Kim Clark:digital space. And what's your intention with that? And I can
Kim Clark:guarantee you that your intention is that matching the
Kim Clark:impact does especially depending on the audience, so you
Kim Clark:contributed an article, thank you for the millions time for
Kim Clark:contributing this article to our book. And the deeper dive topic
Kim Clark:is called the influence of stereotypes, right? Can you read
Kim Clark:a little bit, the ending of your article there and then talk
Kim Clark:about what you were trying to convey to those who read the
Kim Clark:book?
Unknown:Yeah, I'm going to start a little bit higher than
Unknown:the ending just a tiny bit. In the end, it isn't enough to hold
Unknown:media producers accountable, it comes down to what we as
Unknown:individual audience members, and groups do. The public needs to
Unknown:recognize that we have choices, but then we need to follow up by
Unknown:making good ones. If people choose to be passive consumers
Unknown:of media not questioning the meaning oriented meeting occurs,
Unknown:all of society must live with the adverse consequences and
Unknown:some more than others. Conversely, if people recognize
Unknown:their power and agency by becoming an active audience,
Unknown:member and or producer themselves, we can demand
Unknown:diverse content, we can strive for as many perspectives as
Unknown:possible. And we can question and develop our own
Unknown:interpretation of media content, based upon our life experience,
Unknown:our education, family and cultural influences, we can
Unknown:learn that the system doesn't work without us. If we back away
Unknown:the relationship and demands Dei, especially joined with many
Unknown:others, media will be forced to address our concerns and needs.
Unknown:And finally, we need to be diligently. We need to
Unknown:diligently monitor our consumption behaviors, be
Unknown:skeptical, engage in critical thinking, slow down, check and
Unknown:separate facts from opinion, and check the origin or context or
Unknown:purpose of all information, before we share it together. And
Unknown:only together, we can socially construct a better reality by
Unknown:making it true every time we engage with media and with each
Unknown:other. Yeah, that's the thing, you know, it's a, it is a I
Unknown:mean, I always use the metaphor of a drug deal. It's a drug
Unknown:deal. You got a drug dealer with a product, that's the drug and
Unknown:somebody's buying it. And if there's no product, there's no
Unknown:exchange, right. And we are the product that has been bought and
Unknown:sold between media and advertisers media are getting us
Unknown:to the screens with content, whether it's a Netflix movie, or
Unknown:you know, a network television show or a series or YouTube
Unknown:video or a meme or an Instagram post, whatever it is. They they
Unknown:drive us to the screens, they bring us to the screens, and
Unknown:then they hand us over with all of our demographic information
Unknown:to advertisers who custom build now, ads to appear on your
Unknown:social media or on your screens, or whatever. So if we remove
Unknown:ourselves as the product, the drug deal can't occur, right,
Unknown:the exchange can't occur. So when we consume, we're present,
Unknown:and when we don't consume we aren't. And if we demand better
Unknown:quality, they will deliver it because if not their competitors
Unknown:will and we'll go to those screens. And my students are
Unknown:always like, but we're so we're just individuals, and these
Unknown:corporations are so big, and I'm like McDonald's sells salad.
Unknown:McDonald's sells salad. Now, if you had bet me a billion dollars
Unknown:in my lifetime, because McDonald's was invented in my
Unknown:lifetime, when I was a little girl, that McDonald's was ever
Unknown:going to sell a salad, I would have taken that bet and lost it.
Unknown:Because people were like, We got to start like eating also green
Unknown:things we can't just be eating but you know, whatever. And all
Unknown:of a sudden McDonald's so salad. So we do have the power. They we
Unknown:just don't know it and they don't want us to know it. So the
Unknown:only thing I can think of to do is to educate people about their
Unknown:own power, their own cultural power, their own consumptive
Unknown:power. And the more active we are and the more demanding we
Unknown:are, the more we're gonna get what we want. But if we don't
Unknown:ask, and we don't demand, they're gonna give us whatever
Unknown:they think we deserve.
Kim Clark:Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You
Kim Clark:mentioned in the article critical thinking and social
Kim Clark:construction. So so that social construction of reality is a
Kim Clark:media theory.
Unknown:Right? Can you speak to? It's my favorite one, right?
Kim Clark:What's that?
Unknown:It's my favorite media theory is my favorite
Kim Clark:tale. Can you speak to how groups and populations
Kim Clark:have been stereotyped? You know, you've mentioned some examples,
Kim Clark:if you can add some more examples, and that narrative
Kim Clark:that's being pushed, that's being normalized. And how that
Kim Clark:relates to the theory of social, basically, what it what is
Kim Clark:social construction of reality? And how does it show up? And
Kim Clark:what role does media I mean, critical thinking play as an
Kim Clark:antidote?
Unknown:That's a great question. I feel Um, well,
Unknown:social construction of reality is that reality is whatever we
Unknown:all agree it is. A good example, would be money, right? I go into
Unknown:a store and I hand somebody a piece of paper that's really
Unknown:made out of cloth that has special ink on it that the Fed
Unknown:printed. And that piece of paper is supposed to represent 100,
Unknown:pennies, four quarters, 10, dimes, whatever. And I'm
Unknown:supposed to be able to hand it to somebody and say, give me
Unknown:that food or whatever that candy bar, I'll take that candy bar,
Unknown:although nothing costs $1 anymore, but you get the point.
Unknown:Right? And that person has to take the money legally, because
Unknown:it's legal tender. And we've all agreed that it used to represent
Unknown:gold in Fort Knox. But now I don't know what it represents.
Unknown:Because it depends on the market, right? But we all agree
Unknown:that it does. So it could be seashells, it could be sunflower
Unknown:seeds, whatever we agree is worth money is worth trade, that
Unknown:and we all agreed and that's what it's going to be. And it's
Unknown:the same with cultural stuff and with defining of groups. So if
Unknown:you have a stereotype, let's say an Asian stereotype, women,
Unknown:Asian women are either completely virginal, right, or
Unknown:they're dragon ladies in their heads of cartels. They seem to
Unknown:be stereotyped to have all these sexual secrets, you know, and
Unknown:all of this stuff, when when you and and you know, quiet and they
Unknown:don't argue and they keep their heads down, they bow a lot.
Unknown:These are all stereotypes, bad drivers, right? All of these are
Unknown:stereotypes. Does that mean that there aren't some people that
Unknown:are bad drivers? Yeah, but I've seen a lot of other bad drivers
Unknown:from all walks of life, old, young, any race drivers can be
Unknown:bad, right? So you get these stereotypes, and they go out
Unknown:there, and then you meet an Asian person, person, and you're
Unknown:not Asian, okay, you meet an Asian person. First of all, as a
Unknown:white privilege person, I would meet an Asian person. And
Unknown:there's all kinds of cues coming at me before I ever open my
Unknown:mouth and introduce myself. I'm looking at this Asian person.
Unknown:And I'm like, what kind of Asian person is this? Well, Asian
Unknown:people will tell you that they can. They can tell the
Unknown:difference between eight different kinds of Asians but
Unknown:but Asians in the language are just sort of lumped under this
Unknown:category of Asian when there's all kinds of diversity going on
Unknown:different languages, different locations, same locations, but
Unknown:different languages, customs, traditions, food, the whole
Unknown:shebang. But they're all lumped inside this one category. So I
Unknown:meet somebody new. And my son is a half Asian, my stepson, his
Unknown:half Asian, and it was fascinating, but terrible, at
Unknown:the same time to watch people engage him. Because they would
Unknown:say, Where's your mother, and be really mean to him. And he'd
Unknown:point to me, and I'm a white, blond woman. And he said, That's
Unknown:my mother. And then the whole story would change. The whole
Unknown:the way they treated him the way they thought about him. Oh,
Unknown:you're so wonderful, Kim, you must have adopted a Chinese
Unknown:child. And I'd say I didn't adopt anybody. He's my stepson.
Unknown:And he's Korean. Right? So these messages that come to you
Unknown:through the media and the stories that are told over and
Unknown:over again, stereotypes that are given to you are some times
Unknown:oftentimes, the only experience a lot of people have of other.
Unknown:Right. So when they engage in with people that they don't have
Unknown:a lot of contact with, they already think that they
Unknown:understand who that person is. And and they have zero idea,
Unknown:because the stereotypes do not represent everyone in in
Unknown:different categories. They just they aren't there. They're short
Unknown:cut storytelling plots, because they only have 30 minutes to
Unknown:tell a story or an hour or an hour and a half, unless it's a
Unknown:mini series and then it's divided up into those amounts,
Unknown:right. So that's why the dumb woman is a busty blonde and
Unknown:that's why the serious woman is a bookish brunette. And that's
Unknown:why you know, Who are the judges? Who are the criminals?
Unknown:Who, who's smart, who's not, you know, older people are always
Unknown:sort of The Golden Girls. You know? People always, like older
Unknown:women are a little bit flighty and scattered. And I'm like, not
Unknown:be Arthur like, and she was, like plastic and biting and had
Unknown:an incredible sense of humor and wit, but I guess they're more
Unknown:thinking about Betty White or something, I don't know. So the
Unknown:stereotypes really make it terrible for and those are just
Unknown:funny little examples, little white privilege examples. I
Unknown:mean, stereotypes can mean the difference between people having
Unknown:their partners in the room when they're hospitalized, making
Unknown:life decisions for them and the LGBTQ plus coming community or
Unknown:being able to buy a house in a neighborhood, if you're Jewish,
Unknown:or if you're black, or if you're Latino or whatever, right, if
Unknown:you're a person that is not white privileged. So it's the it
Unknown:isn't just Well, you shouldn't be watching that show. Because
Unknown:it's really not good. No, you shouldn't be watching that show
Unknown:because it perpetuates negative stereotypes that have real
Unknown:consequence. for groups of people in really incredible
Unknown:ways. You can also be white men, can I say for the record, it can
Unknown:also be white men, which is I get a lot of pushback from my,
Unknown:in my classes from white men going, Are we just going to be
Unknown:the villains forever. So well, you're not necessarily always
Unknown:the villains, but you are also affected. And shootings are the
Unknown:era one of the best areas I can tell you. Especially school
Unknown:shootings. If it were if it were young girls, or any person of
Unknown:color that's doing all the shootings, like if, if shooting
Unknown:after shooting after shooting the West Asian young boys, this
Unknown:country will be asking what is going on with Asian young boys,
Unknown:that they're going into the schools and shooting people?
Unknown:Right? If it was women think back to Thelma and Louise,
Unknown:right? How many movies have you seen where men are just shooting
Unknown:each other and killing each other and godfather and cop
Unknown:shows and nobody seemed to care. But when two women did it in a
Unknown:movie that was super popular? Oh my goodness, the media came out
Unknown:saying you know what is what is up with? Like, why is everybody
Unknown:watching this movie about these women shooting people? And I'm
Unknown:like, because we've been watching men shoot people since
Unknown:the cowboy and Indian movies. You know, from the start, what's
Unknown:the big deal? If women were going in and shooting up?
Unknown:Schools, they would say what is going on in America with these
Unknown:little girls? What kind of crisis are we in? But it isn't
Unknown:nobody's talking about the white young male crisis. And 99% of
Unknown:all the school shootings are done by white boys, we should be
Unknown:having that conversation. We should and I tell my white male
Unknown:students, identifying male students at that I say this
Unknown:would help you. A majority of crime that's committed in this
Unknown:country is again is man on man cry. It's not man on women
Unknown:crime. It's man on man crime. You know, men are dying at the
Unknown:hands of other men. There is a crisis of masculinity in the
Unknown:country, but we don't talk about it because they're the majority.
Unknown:And they're and they're in charge. So they're the more
Unknown:invisible under the critical lens. Right? When you think
Unknown:minority when you think minority, you think woman or
Unknown:person of color. Right? You don't think white male because
Unknown:they're not a minority. Right? So they're invisible to the
Unknown:lens, because we're talking about these issues of a hair of
Unknown:the minorities when you think gender. What do you think LGBTQ
Unknown:plus or women? But what you don't think is white
Unknown:heterosexual male? Right? Well, they have a gender. So why
Unknown:aren't we talking about that? Because white, almost white
Unknown:heterosexual is not it is in charge. Right? So that that's
Unknown:invisible. And white, white as a race is is more invisible.
Unknown:Right? Because it's even though we talk about race if we talk
Unknown:about race, critical race theory even but race, white, it doesn't
Unknown:seem to be under the lens, right? And so anytime there's a
Unknown:group that's invisible, as the No arm are the mainstream or
Unknown:this is the way it should be, or everything's compared off of
Unknown:that. That's when you know, who is the majority? And who is in
Unknown:control? Because they're not under the critical lens? It's
Unknown:very interesting.
Kim Clark:Very interesting. Yeah. When you alluded to one of
Kim Clark:the ways that I describe it to clients is, there's the founding
Kim Clark:fathers of the United States, the characteristics of the
Kim Clark:founding fathers, that is, that has been normalized as the
Kim Clark:standard from which everything else is compared. Now, the
Kim Clark:farther away you are, when you get into intersectionality, of
Kim Clark:identities of marginalized identities, the farther away you
Kim Clark:are from the Founding Fathers characteristics, the more
Kim Clark:vulnerable and at risk and marginalized you are, because in
Kim Clark:society, we have created this hierarchy of value based on
Kim Clark:these identities in comparison to what is considered, you know,
Kim Clark:the standard, the rideability. Very interesting.
Unknown:It is very interesting, because I'm always asking that
Unknown:question, when people bring up things to me, and they're
Unknown:talking, you know, about whatever privilege or whatever.
Unknown:And I'm always saying, Well, yeah, but we have to remember
Unknown:that we're all in this together, that white males also have
Unknown:gender and white males also have race and white males also, you
Unknown:know, whatever. Somehow or another. I don't know how, but
Unknown:you know, I think it goes in, in, in waves and troughs, up and
Unknown:down, up and down, we have to convince people that it is in
Unknown:their best interest. It is in everyone's best interest to
Unknown:think about ramifications that affect all of us. I mean, global
Unknown:warming is a perfect example of that in the in the planetary
Unknown:realm, right? If you, if you're wasting stuff, and you're living
Unknown:a less than ideal, recyclable life, or whatever, it's the
Unknown:tipping point, everybody needs to get in this together, because
Unknown:we're all in it together. But if the privileged whoever they are,
Unknown:they could be white, they could be whatever, if the privilege
Unknown:but just realize that it'd be hooves, you. And I thought the
Unknown:pandemic was going to do it. I'm such a Pollyanna. Sometimes I
Unknown:thought this was gonna be it. When would people realize that
Unknown:we all deserve health care? Because if we all deserve health
Unknown:care, it's safer for all of us, right? If everybody has access
Unknown:to testing, and masks and whatever, you know, if you
Unknown:believe in it, this shots or you know, whatever, what are they
Unknown:called? vaccination? Yeah, vaccinations would have, if it's
Unknown:free, if everybody can get medical help, and it's in it's
Unknown:available, because that should be a right. I mean, that should
Unknown:be a privilege, not a privilege, it should be a right, everybody
Unknown:should have health care, it makes the whole, all of us
Unknown:healthier. And so that's healthier for me too, as a
Unknown:privileged person who will interact with people. I just
Unknown:thought that pandemic was going to do it. I don't, I mean, I
Unknown:think it moved the needle a little bit, but I'm just
Unknown:wondering if it's going to move back, it is to everyone's
Unknown:advantage is just trying to convince the people in charge
Unknown:and the people with the money and the people with the
Unknown:privilege, that you are so rich, that if you just gave up a
Unknown:little bit more on your taxes, it would make the whole situate
Unknown:your roads would also be better. Your I mean, everything would be
Unknown:better, and you're still gonna be rich. You know what I mean? I
Unknown:have this conversation a lot with with wealthy people. I'm
Unknown:like, where do you put your money? Like, what is your? What
Unknown:is your why I don't have to? And I said, I know you don't have
Unknown:to? I mean, nobody's requiring it in the law or anything. But
Unknown:where why wouldn't you? I don't know. You know, and we're given
Unknown:these statistics all the time, like the richest five people, or
Unknown:the richest two people or something could stop, you know,
Unknown:child hunger. And I'm like, wow, well, let's do that. And they
Unknown:would still be rich, they have so much money, they can't spend
Unknown:it all, they at all. Now, they're not enough minutes in
Unknown:the day. So
Kim Clark:we're not going to get into it. But I have seen
Kim Clark:some kind of futurists that are talking about with the with AI
Kim Clark:and the capabilities of AI that there will be trillionaires out
Kim Clark:of it. So I actually want to have a part two with you.
Kim Clark:There's more that I'd like to ask you and have a conversation
Kim Clark:about as it relates to what we were just talking about. I think
Kim Clark:we pick up where we left off. There's more to be said around
Kim Clark:this the power of communications language visual representation,
Kim Clark:as it relates to diversity, equity inclusion, so I'll end
Kim Clark:this part. This first part of the conversation with you on
Kim Clark:this question. Have what is to you? And in your experience,
Kim Clark:what does communicating like you give a damn look like or feel
Kim Clark:like or experience?
Unknown:I think it's, it's you have to not be afraid you have
Unknown:to be not, you have to not be afraid to not be afraid. And be
Unknown:ready. And I really do. I'm really proud of you, I have to
Unknown:say, even though I have nothing to do with this work that you're
Unknown:doing, but it's really, I'm very proud that a student of mine
Unknown:wrote a book like the fine art of not saying stupid shit, I
Unknown:cannot tell you how thrilled I am. And I am doing the work
Unknown:myself. And it's that stopping and thinking before you open
Unknown:your mouth. And in your book, you provide the depth model,
Unknown:like so that to give, here's a way to think about it. And then
Unknown:it becomes second nature after you do it two or three times.
Unknown:Absolutely. And even still, I make mistakes. I probably have
Unknown:made a couple on this interview. But like, in the past, I may not
Unknown:have done this interview, because it's so you know, you
Unknown:can make a mistake, but I'm okay with making mistakes, because
Unknown:I'm willing to apologize, learn whatever lesson I couldn't have
Unknown:known because of who I am, and my position and being a
Unknown:privileged person and whatever. But now I do. And I will never
Unknown:make that mistake again, right. And so I feel like it's just
Unknown:getting over this idea that everything has to be perfect, we
Unknown:are all imperfectly perfect. And understanding that everything we
Unknown:do, the way we live our lives, the way we talk to our children,
Unknown:the way we drive our cars, everything that we do, affects
Unknown:other people. And if you keep that in mind, and you're
Unknown:compassionate to yourself, and say, I made a mistake, but I
Unknown:know I'm trying, and I'm going to try to make up for that
Unknown:mistake and just keep moving forward. It makes it better for
Unknown:you, it makes it better for the world. And that's what we all
Unknown:have to do. Because one person doing it or a small group doing
Unknown:if you just delegate your Dei, sort of, well, there's there's a
Unknown:group out there that does that. You know, or exactly, or if like
Unknown:Black Lives Matter, or LGBTQ plus, it's like, well, you know,
Unknown:they they're gonna do that little they're gonna go out and
Unknown:they're gonna protest about whatever. Like they're doing
Unknown:that not Oh, you know, no, no, no, you have to participate and
Unknown:engage and understand, because taking rights away from one
Unknown:group affects all of the groups. Right. And it has ramifications
Unknown:for for everyone. And so I think that sort of thinking outside of
Unknown:yourself and not being afraid, is is sort of the key to the
Unknown:whole kingdom. That's just that's been my experience.
Unknown:Because otherwise, it's just, you know, it's, it's meaningless
Unknown:if other people don't, if only LGBTQ plus people. Well, it's in
Unknown:the black in the black civil rights movement, if only black
Unknown:people had demanded rights, and no white people had said, yeah,
Unknown:that's wrong, they, you know, that needs to happen. It may not
Unknown:have happened. It's when people really, you know, stop being
Unknown:afraid and understand that now, is not taking anything away from
Unknown:you, it is adding to all of us. And don't be afraid to have that
Unknown:opinion, express that opinion and have difficult conversations
Unknown:about it. It's exhausting.
Kim Clark:As, as a gay woman, I would not have been able to
Kim Clark:legally marry without straight people without heterosexual
Kim Clark:people. You know, making it legal. Right? We couldn't have
Kim Clark:done it on our own. Yeah, let's vote,
Unknown:you know, let's vote let's all of us get together and
Unknown:partner and vote. You know, and, but I also believe, you know,
Unknown:that cuts across all political areas, you know, I think that
Unknown:gun legislation should be had but still, if people want to own
Unknown:guns, there's got to be some kind of a legal way for that to
Unknown:happen or that's better for all of us instead of the way it is
Unknown:right now. Which is no good for any of us. Anybody can be shot
Unknown:now. Right? I mean, you doesn't matter you can be in a mall in
Unknown:Texas, which just happened and
Kim Clark:and you're from Texas, and well, yes, I am in
Kim Clark:part two. Because I think your your upbringing really informs
Kim Clark:who you are today. You saw some stuff, you met some people and
Kim Clark:so and then You know, all the work that you've done all the
Kim Clark:awards, the published books that you've done the papers, etc. And
Kim Clark:all of it is, is coming from this, this, this passion that
Kim Clark:you have for this work that I think we would all benefit
Kim Clark:learning more about and hearing more about. So we'll have a part
Kim Clark:two, how can I find you and stay in touch with you?
Unknown:Um, I, you can always go to San Jose State University
Unknown:and my email is there. It's Kim with a b.masse@sjsu.edu. That's
Unknown:really the best way to get in touch with me.
Kim Clark:Excellent. Well, I look forward to continuing the
Kim Clark:conversation. I really appreciate your time. And thank
Kim Clark:you again for that contribution in the book.
Unknown:Hey, it was honored to be asked, I have to say and it's
Unknown:also honored to have a conversation with you, I really
Unknown:do believe in the work that you're doing. And I think you
Unknown:are so smart. And and I am really grateful that You have
Unknown:given me a tool that I am now using to have very difficult
Unknown:conversations about Dei, in a variety of situations, not the
Unknown:very least of which is with other white people. White
Unknown:privilege. People just say we need to be talking about this
Unknown:even if we're not in the presence of a situation that's
Unknown:demanding it we should be talking about it and and and
Unknown:it's given me a way to do that. And so I'm really grateful for
Unknown:it.
Kim Clark:Yeah, it's not enough to be not racist, right. We must
Kim Clark:be anti Oh, you know, is a white person's social construction of
Kim Clark:reality. Yep. So thank you.
Unknown:All right. Okay, take your time. Thank you.
