July 11, 2023

Policies Through The DEI Lens With Maria E. Gamboa

Policies Through The DEI Lens With Maria E. Gamboa

In this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, Kim Clark talks with Maria Gamboa. Maria talks about the takeaways from her dissertation leading into consultant work. Gamboa believes there needs to be a major shift in mindset for inclusion. There are many group rights around voting. We must try to understand what policies impact certain groups. Maria believes that there are many inequities in language, concerning policy - especially under the DEI lens. How can we take responsibility to do better in policy creation? We must have discussion around integrity when creating and enforcing political campaigns. We must have the difficult discussions with everyone about what is considered ‘normal’ and what are stereotypes. Maria shares we must acknowledge the realities of inequities and always create discussion around policy reinforcement for certain groups. 

About the Guest:

Maria is a first generation immigrant, mother, wife, former academic and historian, and currently works as a consultant helping nonprofits and foundations develop strategic plans. She grew up in the US and Mexico, and is currently based in San Diego.  

Maria recently launched a blog where she examines mental health in the workplace for first generation professionals. You can follow her on LinkedIn or Instagram

About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands. 

Her career spans documentary filmmaking, agency partnerships with the Discovery Channel, teaching at San Jose State University, and leading global internal communication teams at KLA, PayPal, GoDaddy, and GitHub. She is known for her ability to facilitate sensitive yet urgent conversations to make meaningful progress in creating inclusive workplaces. Kim began integrating DEI into communications beginning in 2004 and it wasn't until the summer of 2020 when her peers starting listening and seeing they have a role and responsibility in DEI and in social justice on behalf of their organizations. As a student of life, she has completed several certifications including DEI Certifications from Yale School of Management & UC Berkeley. Kim is also an NSA Speaker.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

https://communicatelikeyougiveadamnpodcast.com

https://communicatelikeyougiveadamn.com/

https://www.instagram.com/consciouscommunicators/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/deicommunicationskimclark/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0dfA0-m1wgROVKjPnu5ukw

https://www.tiktok.com/@consciouscommunicators


 

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Here is the NYT article on the Fulbright, and my blogpost on "diversity money". Here is Amber Cabral's post on Juneteenth and the Walmart ice cream.  

Transcript
Kim Clark:

Hello, welcome back. Thank you for being here. Maria,

Kim Clark:

I am so excited to have a conversation with you, you and I

Kim Clark:

have been on in a couple of trainings together, you helped

Kim Clark:

me out and put together a YouTube video that talks about

Kim Clark:

how not to be performative during Hispanic Heritage Month,

Kim Clark:

we're going to talk about the terminal lateen, Latinx, etc. So

Kim Clark:

that's why I hesitated stuff. So I, I am so fascinated by your

Kim Clark:

background, and I really enjoy our conversations. And I know

Kim Clark:

that you're going to be bring a very unique angle to this

Kim Clark:

conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion,

Kim Clark:

communications, and inclusive language as it relates to

Kim Clark:

policies. This is gonna be a really interesting conversation.

Kim Clark:

So please introduce yourself, and we'll get into it.

Maria Gamboa:

Thanks. My name is Maria Gamboa. I'm a consultant

Maria Gamboa:

and my prior life was as academic trained as a historian.

Maria Gamboa:

And so that's what I that's what I did, I studied the history of

Maria Gamboa:

a lot of policies to understand them. Yeah, and I think what I

Maria Gamboa:

do, too, is help improve programs and understand the

Maria Gamboa:

purpose of programs and how they're written and who they're

Maria Gamboa:

actually for. And if they're achieving their goals. So no, we

Maria Gamboa:

do Yeah, now we do. Now I do strategy consulting for

Maria Gamboa:

nonprofits and foundations, and a lot in health care and

Maria Gamboa:

education. But, you know, that's my day job. And so I'm always

Maria Gamboa:

asking hard questions about programs, what their goal is,

Maria Gamboa:

and also resistance to implementation, because that's

Maria Gamboa:

one of the things right that it's one thing to write

Maria Gamboa:

something down, it's another thing to implement it and

Maria Gamboa:

enforce it and fund it. So those are some of the questions How

Maria Gamboa:

does it work in practice?

Kim Clark:

Well, you have your PhD, which is so impressive. And

Kim Clark:

I would like to learn about what got you to do the topic that you

Kim Clark:

did on your dissertation? And what were some of the key things

Kim Clark:

that kind of you they were takeaways from surprise you

Kim Clark:

within the work that you now do in your consulting?

Unknown:

Yeah, so my research was actually on the history of

Unknown:

comprehensive immigration reform. So the 1986 Act that

Unknown:

many remember is amnesty, but which actually started as an

Unknown:

employer sanctions bill. So how did that happen? I study that,

Unknown:

and I study how Latinos were being recognized as a domestic

Unknown:

minority group that needed protection, and resources, at

Unknown:

the same time that undocumented immigration was growing. And so

Unknown:

the problems that that created for these advocacy groups that

Unknown:

were trying to increase protections for Latinos in

Unknown:

education and employment and voting and housing, you know,

Unknown:

all the areas where it shows up. And people were testing the

Unknown:

limits of that inclusion, back then in the 60s and 70s 70s,

Unknown:

especially, to see if it included immigrants. And

Unknown:

sometimes people hadn't thought that it could include immigrants

Unknown:

or that immigrants would ever access rights and resources. And

Unknown:

so once that started happening, they started to write exclusions

Unknown:

to make sure that immigrants did not, were not included. And so

Unknown:

now we're in a moment where states are rewriting policies to

Unknown:

be inclusionary or exclusionary. And that's important when we

Unknown:

talk about inclusion just because inclusion makes some

Unknown:

people very uncomfortable, because it requires a shift in

Unknown:

mindset. And sometimes people think, have very definitions

Unknown:

just of what it means some people think that means

Unknown:

inclusion at the bottom. And that that people will be

Unknown:

satisfied with that. And other people think it means inclusion

Unknown:

at all levels, even at the top, even in leadership. So that's

Unknown:

some of what I examined. And for example, just real quick, this

Unknown:

is when they were debating if undocumented kids should have

Unknown:

the right to go to public school. And when it went to the

Unknown:

Supreme Court, the justices were asking, Okay, what are the

Unknown:

implications? If if undocumented kids are given the right to go

Unknown:

to public school? Do they get to go to college to what if they

Unknown:

ever want to go to college? And the lawyers for the kids were

Unknown:

saying, well, we're not talking about college, we that's not

Unknown:

included. We're only talking about K through 12. So even

Unknown:

then, there are limits on how much inclusion we're talking

Unknown:

about. And so that's always something to keep in mind.

Kim Clark:

You had mentioned inclusion can be uncomfortable.

Kim Clark:

And, you know, if we were just like, look at that sentence, it

Kim Clark:

it seems like inclusion would be uncomfortable. Doesn't everyone

Kim Clark:

want inclusion, however, the work that you do in looking at

Kim Clark:

programs policy policies specifically because policies

Kim Clark:

are where the institutionalization of racism,

Kim Clark:

sexism, sexism, homophobia, etc exists, but it's what we talked

Kim Clark:

about here is language leads to behavior. So there is

Kim Clark:

intentional language written into these policies to your

Kim Clark:

point that is exclusionary. However, on the surface, we may

Kim Clark:

not necessarily see it. We may not notice it, are there some

Kim Clark:

common phrases, or some examples that you can share where you've

Kim Clark:

come across language that actually seems like it's a good

Kim Clark:

thing, a positive thing? But actually, it's quite

Kim Clark:

exclusionary in practice? Yeah, I

Unknown:

mean, I'm thinking of examples from the present and

Unknown:

the past. So sometimes, it's the group's omitted. So sometimes

Unknown:

when you have a policy, it'll say things like for, and I'm

Unknown:

thinking like, then the National Labor Relations Act, for

Unknown:

example, that included new protections for workers, right.

Unknown:

The fine print said this excluded farm workers and

Unknown:

domestic workers, which were racialized categories. So

Unknown:

sometimes the fine prints like this, this policy is for

Unknown:

everyone, except this group, which is a group that is not

Unknown:

called to a no, you're not saying black and Latino, but

Unknown:

you're saying by some other name. And so I'm just thinking,

Unknown:

so many examples. Another example, in history is just are

Unknown:

you able to enforce the thing? So things that sound good, but

Unknown:

so I had written down like the GI Bill, you know, which had

Unknown:

given people the opportunity to go to college and buy a home.

Unknown:

But the reality was, like segregated schools, segregated

Unknown:

neighborhoods, and so how do you enforce it? But when you talk

Unknown:

about language, I think there's some of the things are ignoring

Unknown:

present inequities. So I could see policies were voting rights,

Unknown:

for example, there's bills, right now to say that we don't

Unknown:

need protections anymore for voting, you know, for voting

Unknown:

because we've reached equality or parity. And so it means

Unknown:

getting rid of kind of oversight to ensure that the process is

Unknown:

being carried out in a way that people have access to voting.

Unknown:

But if you think historically, right, in 1965, when the Voting

Unknown:

Rights Act passed, you know, just because you're given

Unknown:

something doesn't mean you can do it. So now, I think there's

Unknown:

bills to require ID or to make it harder to vote by mail. Even

Unknown:

things like in reproductive health care, which we do a lot

Unknown:

of work, sometimes the group's most affected by policies are

Unknown:

not named. Right. So with restrictions on abortion, for

Unknown:

example, they don't say the group's most likely to be

Unknown:

affected by it. But so what I'm saying is just that it's a lack

Unknown:

of acknowledgement of present inequities that mean policies

Unknown:

are going to impact certain groups more heavily, right, or

Unknown:

more negatively. Student loans. If you look at the data of like,

Unknown:

who takes out loans, who has the highest debt burden, oftentimes,

Unknown:

you'll see it's, it's historically excluded groups,

Unknown:

groups that don't have the safety, net and wealth to pay

Unknown:

for their own education and things like that. So I'm

Unknown:

thinking legislatively, but there's a lot of ways in which

Unknown:

things are written in a way that seems neutral or just general.

Unknown:

And that makes, the argument is that it's the idea that it won't

Unknown:

impact groups differently. But I think the hidden subtext or

Unknown:

context of like the history of this country is what would

Unknown:

explain why it would have a disparate impact. And so part of

Unknown:

the thing is, then what's the impact versus intent just

Unknown:

because you didn't mean for it to have an impact on certain

Unknown:

groups? Or you wrote it in a way that it's not calling that out?

Unknown:

Doesn't mean it won't. And I think that's part of the the

Unknown:

resistance against critical race theory for people to know what

Unknown:

actually happened and why policies reinforce inequities,

Unknown:

even if they're not naming groups by name,

Kim Clark:

I think it's a really important point, and how it's

Kim Clark:

baked in to policies and systems infrastructure, in such a way

Kim Clark:

that it's creating barriers for certain demographics and

Kim Clark:

communities. However, you know, to your point around voter

Kim Clark:

suppression, for example, it's intended to to disenfranchise in

Kim Clark:

control more of the black community's vote. It is also

Kim Clark:

harming people with disabilities and other white people, frankly,

Kim Clark:

who have a harder time with transportation, for example. So

Kim Clark:

it actually is still hurting, dominant cultures, but they

Kim Clark:

don't see it that way. And so the way the language is

Kim Clark:

positioned and who it's coming from To what audience for what

Kim Clark:

impact. It's actually there's a self sabotage that happens. It's

Kim Clark:

like where Heather McGee talks about the draining of the pool,

Kim Clark:

you know, so you know, back in the day, everyone, yeah,

Kim Clark:

everyone loses out. And I've seen more and more examples

Kim Clark:

lately have of, well, you know, if this person wants to do this,

Kim Clark:

and we don't want this person to do this, so then we're going to

Kim Clark:

make up a new rule, we're going to come up with a new policy,

Kim Clark:

and or we're going to amend the current one to make it mean that

Kim Clark:

nobody can do this thing. Because this one person wants to

Kim Clark:

do this. And we don't want that person to do that. So we're just

Kim Clark:

going to change the rules. So nobody does it. So there's

Kim Clark:

different versions of draining the pool that are alive and well

Kim Clark:

today. So one of the things that I think people really don't

Kim Clark:

really understand, like, when I started a job, and I'm reading

Kim Clark:

the code of conduct, maybe in my first couple of days at the job,

Kim Clark:

and then I never look at it again, you know, the employee

Kim Clark:

handbook, or the code of conduct, etc. There's things in

Kim Clark:

there, and I don't even know anything about the company yet I

Kim Clark:

haven't started up, you know, I'm just ramping. And there's

Kim Clark:

all the pressure of you know, you know, whatever, that whole

Kim Clark:

time period when you're onboarding into a company, but

Kim Clark:

one of the things that some of us, not all of us will do, but

Kim Clark:

we'll sign the form to say that we read the employee handbook or

Kim Clark:

the code of conduct, but if we did, we don't look at it. Again,

Kim Clark:

we just kind of operationally operationalize ourselves within

Kim Clark:

the unwritten rules of the culture, the workplace culture,

Kim Clark:

so and then if we do something, and somebody actually wants to

Kim Clark:

create a situation to retaliate or punish or fire us, or

Kim Clark:

whatever it is, they will, that's when the employee

Kim Clark:

handbook comes back into motion and like, well, you signed the

Kim Clark:

document. So language becomes a weapon in those scenarios, and

Kim Clark:

also is a way to control culture on a subjective basis. And

Kim Clark:

there's things within our employee handbook and our code

Kim Clark:

of conduct that I'm reminded of a work done, I don't know if

Kim Clark:

you've read it by the Stanford innovation review, where it's

Kim Clark:

titled the bias of professionalism. And it talks

Kim Clark:

about the policies and practices, the employee

Kim Clark:

handbook, what this subjective term professionalism is, and how

Kim Clark:

it shows up. My point in bringing all this up is that

Kim Clark:

when language is used as a weapon basically refer to in a

Kim Clark:

way that could be vague, just enough to let a lot of people

Kim Clark:

interpret it in different ways. So there's kind of a wild wild

Kim Clark:

west that you know, is is at play here. And this is happening

Kim Clark:

in Florida around the book bands and how DeSantis is is defending

Kim Clark:

saying I never said that. But it's written in such a vague way

Kim Clark:

that one person can complain about a book or a documentary on

Kim Clark:

Ruby Bridges, and then it's pulled. So the ambiguity of

Kim Clark:

language, but also utilizing the code of conduct or whatever, in

Kim Clark:

a way, when you know that the employees aren't really looking

Kim Clark:

at it, but then you can use it as a weapon. There's a real

Kim Clark:

world and a real life impact to what is baked into these things.

Kim Clark:

Can you speak to that a little bit or have some more examples?

Unknown:

Yeah, you mentioned the book band, I'm just trying to

Unknown:

think how else this shows up. I mean, part of it. To me, what it

Unknown:

brings to mind is just that when things are vague like that, it

Unknown:

would be helpful in the organizations that we work with,

Unknown:

if you actually have a shared meaning across the organization

Unknown:

of what you're talking about. When you say professionalism.

Unknown:

When you say equity, when you say inclusion, when you say

Unknown:

like, what does it look like? What does it feel like? What's

Unknown:

an example? But I mean, just what it's bringing to mind too,

Unknown:

is that you do when you join an organization follow or follow,

Unknown:

you know, follow along with the way the behaviors that are

Unknown:

modeled by the leaders, by the supervisors by those in power.

Unknown:

So depending on who those people are, in their belief systems is,

Unknown:

is can create exclusion for to those who think differently, who

Unknown:

have who operate differently, who have a different background,

Unknown:

who even have different opinions. So I'm just wondering

Unknown:

if there's anything more specific you have in mind?

Kim Clark:

No, I think that that's great. I mean, we're

Kim Clark:

gonna be talking to somebody in another episode talking about

Kim Clark:

the impact of stereotypes from the media, for example, where

Kim Clark:

we've had CEOs make comments of that there is no connection this

Kim Clark:

is just entertaining. And these are just stories, there's no

Kim Clark:

real world impact to the stories, you know that we tell

Kim Clark:

these fictional characters. And there's there's no bigger BS

Kim Clark:

than that. So what we'll talk a little bit more about how how

Kim Clark:

language and visuals have been actually use, that has actually

Kim Clark:

had real world impact as well. So many of the folks that are

Kim Clark:

listening are professional communicators. And they are

Kim Clark:

setting the tone and the personality of what the language

Kim Clark:

is within the organizations from which we serve. So can you talk

Kim Clark:

about some examples that you have found in the work of when

Kim Clark:

you're looking for inequities and equities, within the

Kim Clark:

policies and any any other kind of content that you review and

Kim Clark:

you're looking for, that communicators can have an

Kim Clark:

influence and start to have these conversations of being

Kim Clark:

able to have a dei lens on what they what they are putting out

Kim Clark:

as communicators, but also what they're supporting? When it

Kim Clark:

comes to code of conduct or employee handbooks, policies,

Kim Clark:

other practices, processes, etc? How can how can What is that dei

Kim Clark:

lens look like? What do we need to be looking out for inequities

Kim Clark:

within language?

Unknown:

I think it's a long process. So there's the

Unknown:

education piece. I mean, I would listen with education, empathy,

Unknown:

and humility. But you have to build that in right, not just

Unknown:

write it down. So education, I'm thinking, you have to be curious

Unknown:

and open, learn and read. So we talked a little I mean, I've

Unknown:

come across, come across this right, the controversy on we

Unknown:

were talking about Latin X or pregnant person, it's kind of a

Unknown:

privilege to not have to understand those terms, or to

Unknown:

just disagree with terms. And I think a good communicator would

Unknown:

is someone who's curious and open to learn and read something

Unknown:

that might not affect them directly. But that affects

Unknown:

people in general. And empathy is learning what's actually at

Unknown:

stake, right, I think you were mentioning like how language has

Unknown:

an impact on people's lives. With the term pregnant person,

Unknown:

or Latinx, right? Learning what's actually at stake. So

Unknown:

even with pronouns, people have pushed back or what the term

Unknown:

Latinx thinking, it's vanity or people are trying or people are

Unknown:

being, you know, not getting what's the point, and it's much

Unknown:

deeper, right? We're talking about safety. We're talking

Unknown:

about inclusion and belonging, so people can focus on what

Unknown:

they're there to do, so that they can work in peace so that

Unknown:

they feel safe to go to work, so that they feel safe to use your

Unknown:

services. They feel welcome at your institution. And what's

Unknown:

behind it is the danger and risk, people's sense of safety,

Unknown:

their ability to concentrate, the reality, right, that certain

Unknown:

groups face violence, harassment, physical danger, but

Unknown:

also mental, you know, that all this contributes to like, making

Unknown:

it harder for them to just focus because they're feeling

Unknown:

aggression. And so thinking about, I just think a lot about

Unknown:

education, right? Like there's experts on this stuff. We're not

Unknown:

all experts, but we can tap into those resources. And then the

Unknown:

empathy, thinking about what's more important, right, my

Unknown:

convenience or your safety?

Kim Clark:

Oh, just pause right there. Say that again, and break

Kim Clark:

that down.

Unknown:

I was saying it's a privilege to not know or care

Unknown:

about things that don't affect you, right? Because you're not

Unknown:

in danger. And if you don't have to learn the terms, or if you

Unknown:

don't have to learn what it means, or why it's important to

Unknown:

use a term that includes people that acknowledges the humanity

Unknown:

of people are excluded. Right? What the importance, the power

Unknown:

of that, versus you're too lazy to get it. Right. Right. And I

Unknown:

think part of that is that we're all imperfect, we all make

Unknown:

mistakes, we all mess up. So a humility is involved too, right?

Unknown:

That you're probably gonna mess up. But your embarrassment can't

Unknown:

be bigger. Right then like to. So if you're so embarrassed, you

Unknown:

can be like, Oh, it never happened. I can keep messing up

Unknown:

because it's more embarrassing to admit. When you mess up for

Unknown:

me, or I feel nauseous when I let people down.

Kim Clark:

But shame Yeah, I experienced that.

Unknown:

But imagine what the other person feels that felt

Unknown:

harmed, that's even worse. So and it's not their job to

Unknown:

educate us. That's the problem, right? Because imagine like

Unknown:

feeling harmed and then being like, actually, this is why it

Unknown:

matters. Like that's horrible. So it's kind of on us to Yeah,

Unknown:

apologize, do better learn and change, right. And so it's okay

Unknown:

to mess up. But don't let your ego like take over the impact,

Unknown:

right. And so just a lot of a lot of advice, you know, for

Unknown:

people with privilege to use their privilege as allies. So if

Unknown:

someone says something that is exclusionary, discriminatory,

Unknown:

don't wait for a person from that group to bring it up. Like,

Unknown:

that's a lot of weight to carry step in. And yeah, I just have

Unknown:

more examples. I think we were talking about our kids. And

Unknown:

there's, we're all imperfect. So I'll just say like, I mess up a

Unknown:

lot to communicators or people to write. So don't expect

Unknown:

perfection.

Kim Clark:

People First. Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown:

So it's kind of like you have to be open to

Unknown:

continuous improvement, and not take it personally if you get it

Unknown:

wrong. But take responsibility to do better. And I think, I

Unknown:

mean, I don't know if this fits, but don't just think about the

Unknown:

money. Because I think some campaigns think about, oh,

Unknown:

you're inclusive to reach more markets, and blah, blah, blah.

Unknown:

That may not be true for you know, this beer controversy. But

Unknown:

but but just the, you know, it's more about, it's more at stake

Unknown:

back to the point about empathy, like, what's the significance,

Unknown:

right? If you reproduce language that puts people at risk or

Unknown:

questions people's humanity or excludes people, that's going to

Unknown:

have an impact and doesn't, you know, even if you can improve

Unknown:

and get it, right, but if you choose not to get it, right,

Unknown:

that doesn't look so good for your company, and the harm that

Unknown:

you can be causing inadvertently.

Kim Clark:

And it's not up to the other person to get over it,

Kim Clark:

or take a joke, when we can do a whole episode on all of this. I

Kim Clark:

just really loved how you laid it down with your inconvenience

Kim Clark:

is not more important than my safety. And I just I really love

Kim Clark:

that point. And thank you for deconstructing it out and, and

Kim Clark:

helping people hear that, yeah, we were talking about our kids

Kim Clark:

offline. Before we were recording and how you were, I

Kim Clark:

won't tell your side of the story. But my side of the story

Kim Clark:

is that I have a 12 year old daughter, who, although she is

Kim Clark:

adopted, she's she, her birth family comes from Eastern

Kim Clark:

European Europe, Europe, she has white skin and brown hair, etc.

Kim Clark:

And so we actually have conversations around diversity,

Kim Clark:

equity inclusion, believe it or not, I mean, I bought her, you

Kim Clark:

know, the youth version of, you know, how to be a young, anti

Kim Clark:

racist, for example, she loves learning about history and

Kim Clark:

presidents. And so I utilize that to talk about colonization

Kim Clark:

and the Holocaust and all kinds of things. So because she's

Kim Clark:

interested in it, and when I miss gender, or I assign a

Kim Clark:

gender, like if we're driving and somebody cuts me off, and I

Kim Clark:

say, I can't believe he did that. I you know, my default is

Kim Clark:

key. When I can't identify a gender I just go to heat, right?

Kim Clark:

And wonderful kid will say you don't know if it's a you know,

Kim Clark:

you're right, you're absolutely right. And there's things that

Kim Clark:

don't come to her attention. Like, she'll say, she'll talk

Kim Clark:

about the word normal. And then you know, I choose the time, but

Kim Clark:

that's one of those flag words, I'm sure you have flag words

Kim Clark:

that kind of make your ears perk a little bit, that and like,

Kim Clark:

let's pow, you know, those are kind of like those might, those

Kim Clark:

are my kind of, you know, kind of words, and I have many of

Kim Clark:

them, but whenever I hear the word normal, and so I've had

Kim Clark:

that conversation a couple of times with her. And if I say it,

Kim Clark:

she will bring it to my attention, like so sheets. Oh,

Kim Clark:

wow. She's getting that this word normal doesn't really

Kim Clark:

exist. And it's it's existing to protect a certain structure. And

Kim Clark:

it's not making room for people. For to be who they are, you

Kim Clark:

know, that there's some sort of standard that people are failing

Kim Clark:

to meet if they are not normal and what normal is and we're

Kim Clark:

we're all supposed to just understand what that definition

Kim Clark:

of normal is. So it's been an interesting conversation. What

Kim Clark:

about you?

Unknown:

Oh, my God, I love this because first of all kids hear

Unknown:

everything you say. My kid is three. Okay. There's things I

Unknown:

forgot. We said that she was when she was younger than that.

Unknown:

So I think for me, what happened is, she has not internalized

Unknown:

stereotypes, but she's getting there. Right. And so it's a long

Unknown:

story, but basically we were in Mexico and my mom, my mom lives

Unknown:

in Mexico. She doesn't have screens on our Windows and So

Unknown:

the mosquitoes you know, when we stayed with her, we got bit by

Unknown:

mosquitoes. And then from there, it got summarized into there's

Unknown:

mosquitoes in Mexico. Right? And Mexico is weird because they

Unknown:

have mosquitoes, right. And so she was telling me the other day

Unknown:

that at school because she knows she's Mexican, but she's not

Unknown:

sure how much or what, or where Mexico is. I had to buy her

Unknown:

globe. But um, she made the point like, I'm, I'm Max, I'm,

Unknown:

what'd she say? I'm Mexican. I'm normal. And I'm Mexican, or

Unknown:

something like that. Sometimes I'm normal. Sometimes I'm

Unknown:

Mexican. That's like, actually Mexican is normal. Everything's

Unknown:

normal, right? white, brown, black, Asian, every Mexican is

Unknown:

normal. And she said, Yeah, I love Mexico. Grandma lives

Unknown:

there. But they're mosquitoes. It's weird, right? It's a little

Unknown:

weird. Like, no, there's mosquitoes here. We just have

Unknown:

screens, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then I told her, I'm

Unknown:

Mexican. So it's, it's kind of like, not nice to say that

Unknown:

anyone's weird, right. But that was a lot for her to handle. She

Unknown:

started crying because she thought she had offended me. You

Unknown:

know, and I'm so it's like, deep, this is deep stuff. And I

Unknown:

told her you didn't know you're just trying to figure out how

Unknown:

this all works, where these places even are. So I mean, the

Unknown:

lesson there is just like, be gentle. But um, kids are

Unknown:

curious. And so we know, we need to educate ourselves, to be able

Unknown:

to translate to them like what that means. But I do think it's

Unknown:

good to talk about race and in an informed way. And there's a

Unknown:

book that I read before I had kids called nurture shock. I

Unknown:

think that's what it's called, that talks about you talk to

Unknown:

kids about everything, right? Disability, everything, right?

Unknown:

So that everything's normal? Actually, yes. And they don't

Unknown:

embarrass you in public, when they seem like they're so you

Unknown:

know, like asking you, and if they do ask you, you respond

Unknown:

naturally, you don't tell them? You know, don't say that. So,

Unknown:

I'm still learning. I'm just saying, because sometimes, I

Unknown:

know how to respond to adults, but not children. I mean, what

Unknown:

do you do when a kid is racist? And their parents not there? You

Unknown:

know, I'm still learning how to figure that out. Because my

Unknown:

initial reaction is like, get my kid away from that kid, right?

Unknown:

Like, you don't need to be around specialty around it a

Unknown:

lot, actually, on her own. So I'm not there yet. But yeah, I

Unknown:

mean, part of it is normalizing everything, and then being age

Unknown:

appropriate, right, and that they don't mean harm. They're

Unknown:

curious. But if you say stuff that's problematic, they're

Unknown:

gonna repeat it. So

Kim Clark:

now, we've heard more often, especially since the

Kim Clark:

summer of 2020, about the Black and African American community

Kim Clark:

having the talk, the race conversation, I was raised in a

Kim Clark:

very white household, even though I have Native American

Kim Clark:

heritage, that wasn't brought into the conversation, it was

Kim Clark:

just kind of we didn't really talk about race and ethnicity,

Kim Clark:

right? Because we're normal, like we were just talking about,

Kim Clark:

right. So we never had those conversations. So we don't have

Kim Clark:

I don't have I didn't grow up with the skills to name myself

Kim Clark:

identify myself see my place in the world. That's part of the

Kim Clark:

the mentality of the obliviousness, that's part of

Kim Clark:

part of why it works, etc. In, in the community from which you

Kim Clark:

were raised? Are those those kinds of conversations while

Kim Clark:

you're a kid, I think

Unknown:

that it's different. Just on two dimensions. So what

Unknown:

I hear about the talk is about safety. Right? What do you do

Unknown:

when you encounter a police officer to stay alive? Right,

Unknown:

because it might go wrong. And so I can see that happening if

Unknown:

you're an immigrant, right, how to navigate encounters with

Unknown:

immigration. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is unspoken,

Unknown:

you just know, don't mess up, or don't call talk to yourself or

Unknown:

don't, you know, I was lucky enough to have legal status, but

Unknown:

even you, you're very deferential, you know, to

Unknown:

immigration, stuff like that, or to services that can report you

Unknown:

to immigration and like jeopardize your family. I mean,

Unknown:

I think it just shows up differently. If if there's an

Unknown:

acknowledgement of discrimination, or once placed

Unknown:

on the economic ladder that you don't talk back, you know, or

Unknown:

speak up. So it just shows up in other ways, I think like in in

Unknown:

the workforce, and especially I see that as a problem for first

Unknown:

generation professionals who don't know how to advocate for

Unknown:

themselves, manage up or disagree. That's how it shows up

Unknown:

for me. And then I'll just say the problem is that within the

Unknown:

Latino community, there's a lot of racism towards blacks and

Unknown:

towards indigenous people. So I can't guarantee that there's so

Unknown:

I'll just say there's that third element and classism, right

Unknown:

where in Mexico I'll tell you, the police is not held in high

Unknown:

regard, even the military because it seemed like a working

Unknown:

class occupation. And so I don't, I don't want to say that

Unknown:

it's whiteness, but it's that if you have enough money, you can

Unknown:

do whatever you want. And so there's not this fear of, you're

Unknown:

going to lose your life. Just because there's so much

Unknown:

privilege, you know, among middle class Latinos, and then

Unknown:

there's just a lot of racism towards to distinguish

Unknown:

themselves from people who are seeing tab a worse situation. So

Unknown:

it just shows up, like, in a lot of different ways.

Kim Clark:

And I can attest that when I came out, then the

Kim Clark:

conversations with my parents was about safety. And my mom

Kim Clark:

even asked me like, okay, okay, can you tell nobody, because I'm

Kim Clark:

really worried about your safety, like, you know, so she

Kim Clark:

wanted to take advantage of my ability to pass, if you will.

Kim Clark:

And that was really, really interesting. And I saw the love

Kim Clark:

that she was trying to share with me on that. And unlike my

Kim Clark:

color of my skin that is seen, however, the world sees it, and

Kim Clark:

it's not my choice, it's out of my hands. As if I were, you

Kim Clark:

know, I had more melanin in my skin than I do. I had a choice

Kim Clark:

around, being out, if you will, there are certain situations

Kim Clark:

where I do use that privilege. But in most situations, I do

Kim Clark:

not, I don't take advantage of that privilege. But however, I

Kim Clark:

also have height privilege, I have deep voice privilege. I

Kim Clark:

have athletic shape, privilege, you know, so I take advantage of

Kim Clark:

that, it's like, it's not smart to try to do anything to me,

Kim Clark:

right? Or say anything to me, and, but I also, that's also

Kim Clark:

white woman privilege that I am leveraging as well. So if I was

Kim Clark:

a transgender person of color, who was shorter, for example, or

Kim Clark:

a different body shape, etc, I would not have these kinds of

Kim Clark:

privileges, and it would be less, less of it would be more

Kim Clark:

out of my hands. But I did have that safety conversation with my

Kim Clark:

parents when it came to my sexual orientation. So I

Kim Clark:

appreciate you bringing up that point. And because there's

Kim Clark:

certain work environments, or client environments, where I

Kim Clark:

still to this day, at this age, I still don't come out,

Kim Clark:

everywhere I go. Because of safety, I will be traveling to

Kim Clark:

Florida soon. Equality, Florida has issued a travel advisory for

Kim Clark:

the entire state of Florida for anyone who is LGBTQ plus, saying

Kim Clark:

it is not safe to travel here. Certainly in certain pockets of

Kim Clark:

Florida, a travel advisory has been issued, and I'm going to

Kim Clark:

Florida and I will be I have the option, you know, to be out or

Kim Clark:

not, or wear the T shirts that I have or not with the pride flag.

Kim Clark:

And I it's an it's a safety situation. But there's also a

Kim Clark:

sense of pride and solidarity and Ally ship and, and wanting

Kim Clark:

people to know that I am here and I see them. But there are

Kim Clark:

people that don't have the choices and the privilege and

Kim Clark:

the options like I do. And I recognize that which motivates

Kim Clark:

me more to be out to help with the stereotypes that can be more

Kim Clark:

disproportionately harmful to people who can't necessarily

Kim Clark:

hide as well as I can. So just in our last couple of minutes

Kim Clark:

here, Maria, what does come you know, tying everything that we

Kim Clark:

talked about the intrapersonal, the you know, the intra personal

Kim Clark:

communication, as well as the reviewing of our language that

Kim Clark:

builds the nuts and bolts and functions and infrastructures of

Kim Clark:

our businesses in our policies or practices or processes, etc.

Kim Clark:

What does it look like, in your opinion, to communicate like,

Kim Clark:

give a damn,

Unknown:

part of me wants to say you can't have assumptions about

Unknown:

what's normal. Right? And which itself requires a growth

Unknown:

mindset, right? Because how do you get it right, you might you

Unknown:

won't get it right the first time. So I think partly is

Unknown:

continuing being open to continuous improvement, being

Unknown:

open to feedback, and telling people what you're doing with

Unknown:

that feedback. I don't know pain people, you know, if you do

Unknown:

focus groups, or if people have a role in making your materials

Unknown:

more inclusive, paying for that knowledge, right, but also

Unknown:

building the capacity. So not relying on certain groups to

Unknown:

point out the flaws and recognizing the power dynamics

Unknown:

inherent in that if you're asking someone for feedback,

Unknown:

where you have more power and they don't feel comfortable

Unknown:

actually telling you what they think to improve the language.

Unknown:

So and I think when I say normative don't don't ask So

Unknown:

many things normative. I mean, even the one thing I left out

Unknown:

the question yesterday about the the talk, I mean, if you just

Unknown:

look at the data, right, acknowledging the reality is

Unknown:

acknowledging the relative inequities. And so that's why

Unknown:

certain language is not going to land for some people. Something

Unknown:

we didn't talk about is exclusion of people who are

Unknown:

formerly incarcerated, right? I see a lot of advances in

Unknown:

programs to address that. Discrimination. But in popular

Unknown:

culture, there's still jokes, right about what it is to be a

Unknown:

prisoner, even my three year old, right? Like, oh, a band, it

Unknown:

has stripes. So very young, that two years old, people are

Unknown:

learning like what's going on? They try kids try to like,

Unknown:

simplify, good, bad is that good or bad person. And that's not

Unknown:

how it is. Some people are denied opportunities, right? And

Unknown:

just about the talk, like Latino men, right, face enormous

Unknown:

scrutiny, and they have to control their emotions. And so

Unknown:

like the point of how it privilege that you were

Unknown:

speaking, being able to raise us to make a scene to advocate for

Unknown:

yourself to defend yourself requires privilege that you

Unknown:

won't be, you won't face retribution for that. Right. So

Unknown:

anyway, just in terms of what's normative, expanding what we

Unknown:

think is normative and trying to go back to things that are still

Unknown:

that are stereotypes. When you think about Disney movies that

Unknown:

now have the disclaimer, this was offensive, then it's

Unknown:

defensive now, okay, like, relook at things that for a long

Unknown:

time have seemed okay, because things change, and and just in

Unknown:

terms of history, you know, hard won rights can be lost. Right?

Unknown:

And so, look at the ways in which people are trying to

Unknown:

create new exclusion. Really? How do you say, very creatively,

Unknown:

so that you can't tell? Right, so So, and there's a book by Ian

Unknown:

Haney Lopez called dog whistle politics. I don't have the whole

Unknown:

title. But you know, things like make America great again, what

Unknown:

does that mean? Right? You don't say anything, but you say a lot,

Unknown:

you're saying go back to a time when people didn't have rights

Unknown:

when people couldn't vote can go to school. So just sometimes

Unknown:

when we use language that seems just general, the people

Unknown:

enforcing it, show you who's included in that normal, right.

Kim Clark:

I used to teach in person I still teach online at

Kim Clark:

San Jose State University in California. And one of the

Kim Clark:

classes I used to teach is media theory and research, one of the

Kim Clark:

things that we would do as a class is that we would watch

Kim Clark:

news stories, for example, and we went, there's a lot to, and

Kim Clark:

I'm only going to mention one slice of what we would pay

Kim Clark:

attention to to deconstruct it. But one of the things I would

Kim Clark:

point the students attention to and it's something I test

Kim Clark:

myself, in my own media criticism, you know, critical

Kim Clark:

thinking of media, etc. is to look at, okay, and I've made my

Kim Clark:

own documentaries. So I know the conventions I you know, this is

Kim Clark:

this is what one does, as a director, as a writer, you're

Kim Clark:

telling the the audience where to look where what you want

Kim Clark:

emphasized, write everything in the frame as a character to

Kim Clark:

support the story that has a certain theme to it, sometimes

Kim Clark:

life lessons, etc, mirroring life, and sometimes not, etc.

Kim Clark:

But it's very intentional to draw the eye and lead the

Kim Clark:

audience in a certain direction. We're showing you what we want

Kim Clark:

you to see. So there's there's elements that are emphasized.

Kim Clark:

But there's also elements that are de emphasized, what is being

Kim Clark:

left out? Who is being left out? Why which circling back to what

Kim Clark:

you said at the beginning, as as far as the programs that you

Kim Clark:

evaluate, like, why are we doing this program? And what is the

Kim Clark:

effect of it, they may have an intention, but it may have a

Kim Clark:

different impact. So this idea of looking at our language and

Kim Clark:

seeing what we are emphasizing who we are emphasizing and then

Kim Clark:

weigh whether it's intentional or not, what are we

Kim Clark:

deemphasizing? Who are we silencing Who are we? Who are we

Kim Clark:

leaving out? Right, and that's part of having that dei lens on

Kim Clark:

our work on a regular basis. Maria, thank you so much for

Kim Clark:

bringing your expertise, your research and dissertation work

Kim Clark:

to end your personal life and talking about your kid. You

Kim Clark:

know, I just love the range of the conversation We just had,

Kim Clark:

how can people stay in touch with you?

Unknown:

I have a blog, Maria gamble.com, and I'm on LinkedIn

Unknown:

and Instagram. So yeah, add me feel free to read what I write.

Unknown:

It's a bunch of random stuff but all with this lens, you know,

Unknown:

because I deconstruct PBS shows, I deconstruct, you know, higher

Unknown:

ed programs. So it's just whatever I see with that lens.

Kim Clark:

Excellent, excellent. So people can, can learn and

Kim Clark:

kind of learn off of your example of what you're seeing

Kim Clark:

that's emphasized and what's being left out and de

Kim Clark:

emphasized. That's awesome. Thank you. I look forward to

Kim Clark:

subscribing myself. Thank you for being here. Maria. It was so

Kim Clark:

great to have you here. Thanks for the conversation. Thank you.