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On this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, Kim Clark leads an engaging conversation with award-winning entrepreneur, speaker, author, and diversity, equity, and inclusion expert, Jennifer Brown. From her unique journey of being a former opera singer, to now becoming a trailblazer for DEI, Jennifer Brown gives her insights on how communicators can advise their leaders on leading institutions through change. Not only does she teach us how to lead DEI initiatives in the workplace, but she reminds us how to acknowledge the diversity of opinion. From the peaks and valleys of her experience to understanding the leadership spectrum of allyship, Jennifer reminds us of the power of meeting organizations where they are in order to evoke true change.
About The Guest:
Jennifer Brown (she/her) is an award-winning entrepreneur, speaker, author, and diversity, equity, and inclusion expert who is deeply passionate about building more inclusive workplaces where all of us can thrive. As the Founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting (JBC), a 20-year-old certified woman- and LGBT-owned firm, Jennifer and her team design and execute inclusion strategies that have been implemented by some of the biggest companies and nonprofits in the world. She is also the bestselling author of four books on inclusive leadership, including her most recent, a second edition of How to Be an Inclusive Leader, which addresses some of the most pressing challenges of our times and how identity, privilege and equity can drive opportunity for all. Her keynoting has taken her from everywhere from Google to IBM to the NASA Space Flight Center to leading business schools around the world, and her podcast, The Will to Change, is in its fifth year, and recognized as one of the top DEI podcasts.
Find Jennifer Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
Communicate Like You Give A Damn Podcast
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Welcome back, everybody. Oh, this episode Oh,
Kim Clark:this episode please. Okay, just pause for a second here, make
Kim Clark:sure that you've got some paper, some pens, your iPad, your
Kim Clark:laptop, whatever it is in for those of you who are driving or
Kim Clark:jogging right now, you're gonna want to save this episode and go
Kim Clark:back because there's going to be notes that you need to take as a
Kim Clark:communicator learning about diversity, equity and inclusion,
Kim Clark:what it is what it isn't. It is my honor to bring Jennifer Brown
Kim Clark:in on communicate like you give a damn here in the podcast. I'm
Kim Clark:gonna let her introduce herself and we're just not going to
Kim Clark:waste any time, Jennifer, we're just gonna go straight in.
Jennifer Brown:Okay, straight in. Hi, everybody. I'm Jennifer,
Jennifer Brown:my pronouns are she, her. And Kim. It's such an honor to be
Jennifer Brown:joining you today. And if we are not communicators, we are
Jennifer Brown:nothing. And I've always been always been,
Kim Clark:Oh, we're starting off like that I am so happy
Kim Clark:about this, say say that, again, for the people in the back.
Unknown:If we are not communicators, we are nothing.
Unknown:Nothing, we will never get anywhere. We will. It's some of
Unknown:the hardest work to do well, and it requires creativity and
Unknown:humility and flexibility and all the things that we can talk
Unknown:about today. But I mean, honestly, if you said to me,
Unknown:what is my biggest job? And you might say it says a dei
Unknown:professional, but it's really a communicator, you really is at
Unknown:the end of the day, God is it.
Kim Clark:Okay, I love it. I love it. I love it. You gotta
Kim Clark:tell a little bit more about your background as far as like
Kim Clark:you know, the books that you've authored, the firm that you've
Kim Clark:built. And then I want to get into kind of what the Genesis
Kim Clark:was of how you started Jennifer Brown consulting.
Unknown:Totally. Yeah. So I'll maybe just roll that all in
Unknown:together. So I'll start I was an opera singer in my 20s. And I
Unknown:moved to New York to study and unfortunately injured my voice
Unknown:and had to get a couple of surgeries and had to really
Unknown:leave the field. And I thought it was like the end of my life,
Unknown:you know, when you're young and has tears in your eyes and think
Unknown:that's the only way that you can make a contribution and be heard
Unknown:back to our point about communicators? Yeah, I'm sorry,
Unknown:I was already. Exactly. There's a theme going? Yes, indeed. But
Unknown:it wasn't the only way. And what was cool is the universe often
Unknown:redirects us right? If we're not really using our voice in the
Unknown:way that we're meant to, literally and figuratively. I
Unknown:looking back, I think that's what happened, I was redirected.
Unknown:And what I stumbled on was the world of, you know, it's under
Unknown:the HR umbrella. But really, it's facilitation and
Unknown:leadership, and organizational change. And I stumbled on that,
Unknown:because a lot of facilitators, of course, used to be
Unknown:performers, and still are. And it is a version of performance.
Unknown:But it's around a different obviously a different topic. And
Unknown:I found it really fascinating to think about, why do people
Unknown:change? What is the organizational structure and
Unknown:system? How do these companies get things done? How do people
Unknown:use their voice in a system to change that system to influence
Unknown:that system? And, um, and, you know, what does it mean to be a
Unknown:leader, and I just, I just became a student of that. And,
Unknown:and I did little did I know that I hung my shingle out and 20
Unknown:years ago, and and the Little did I know that we would, we
Unknown:would eventually kind of move into this dei field, it was D
Unknown:and I back then, and scarcely even the I was really just, you
Unknown:know, I'm talking 2025 years ago, we were really just having
Unknown:the diversity conversation. And I moved into that, because I'm a
Unknown:member of the LGBTQ plus community. And I've been really
Unknown:active in a lot of advocacy work, but it was pro bono, it
Unknown:was through my friends who happened to be the only out
Unknown:LGBT, there was no q plus, then either like our language has
Unknown:changed. But back then we were you know, there was there were
Unknown:really tight circle of us that were trying to change companies
Unknown:for the better. And many of my friends that that helped do free
Unknown:panels, and were hosted by the different companies were talking
Unknown:about domestic partner benefits, and how do we change benefits
Unknown:and language and the non discrimination, policies and
Unknown:statements of the companies and it was really, really, I really
Unknown:look back fondly on those days, because I really learned how
Unknown:important our voices are in changing these massive
Unknown:institutions. And how important showing up authentically is and
Unknown:how risky and that is and how much courage it takes to really
Unknown:push your institution, particularly when the
Unknown:institution is the one that's giving you a paycheck every two
Unknown:weeks. Right. You know, and leveraging though your identity
Unknown:to better the institution. And so really, the birth of my
Unknown:commitment to dei started back then, and then I realized that
Unknown:with my background in human capital and leadership and
Unknown:elaborate leadership effectiveness and team
Unknown:effectiveness, I could kind of bring in this Tip, really a very
Unknown:dedicated di shop. And I started to build my team with
Unknown:consultants and began to write books about seven years ago. So
Unknown:I have four books now on inclusive leadership. And I have
Unknown:a team of people who are amazing what they do. And we now come
Unknown:into companies and deliver strategy and training and I
Unknown:keynote and speak a lot. And so I am performing, I like to say I
Unknown:was meant to use my voice, just not as a singer. And really, to
Unknown:use the voice for what hasn't been voiced and who hasn't
Unknown:haven't had a voice because that's something that I really,
Unknown:I really relate too deeply for all the reasons that I just
Unknown:described. So it's really very fulfilling work. It's become
Unknown:more challenging lately. But I have to say, it's been
Unknown:challenging all along. The only time it wasn't even was
Unknown:challenging and 2020 and 2021, which we can certainly talk
Unknown:about, just in a very different way. Yes. It's always been
Unknown:challenging and, and but very much, deeply mission driven for
Unknown:me and everybody I know that does it.
Kim Clark:Yeah, I can think of back when marriage equality was
Kim Clark:debated, let's be honest, it was debated. And so I wouldn't be as
Kim Clark:a gay woman, I would be, you know, doing the communications
Kim Clark:and house at PayPal, for example, and I would be going to
Kim Clark:work and I would have power and privilege in that situation,
Kim Clark:then I would go and do some speaking and be on a panel
Kim Clark:around gay marriage, and then all of that power and privilege
Kim Clark:was gone. Because I was that I was the gay person with the
Kim Clark:agenda. But it took the heterosexual person to be the
Kim Clark:voice in that room and say, No, we're not gonna, we're not,
Kim Clark:we're not going to stand for this, you know, they, they
Kim Clark:deserve these basic rights, etc, etc. And which was very
Kim Clark:motivational for me, especially, especially before 2020, but
Kim Clark:certainly through 2020, in this sense of shifting from ally ship
Kim Clark:to advocacy, and I know, you have kind of a leadership
Kim Clark:spectrum that you can speak to and talking about what that ally
Kim Clark:ship spectrum looks like, and what those steps are, that are
Kim Clark:involved. So you have a great model based on that. But that's
Kim Clark:when that was the shift for me to actually feel an experience
Kim Clark:not having not being paid attention to, you know, not
Kim Clark:having that, that power in our room to be heard. Now, I was
Kim Clark:taught on how to be a woman in the world, or in the United
Kim Clark:States growing up, but also being a gay woman. When my
Kim Clark:rights were at stake. You know, it became a real lesson for me
Kim Clark:on how much more I have to speak up and use my voice to your
Kim Clark:point. So since you've started your shop over the last 20
Kim Clark:years, you've probably seen some peaks and valleys, you've
Kim Clark:probably seen some waves of you said it was DNI and barely
Kim Clark:hanging on and I the inclusion in the beginning there. And so
Kim Clark:here there's you know, diversity, equity and inclusion,
Kim Clark:some people add the A for accessibility or access, or, you
Kim Clark:know, accountability, some people use a for that. And then
Kim Clark:you add the J in there, and we can be jet eyes, you know, with
Kim Clark:justice. So there's a lot of acronyms to your point, like
Kim Clark:LGBTQ plus, like the acronym continues to grow. And friends
Kim Clark:who are listening. The reason is because it's trying to
Kim Clark:demonstrate that heterosexuality is just one of many, many, many
Kim Clark:options of gender expression, and sexual orientation. That's
Kim Clark:why the acronym keeps growing, because we're trying to
Kim Clark:demonstrate, there are so many different ways to show up in the
Kim Clark:world.
Unknown:Right? It seems so harmless and actually really
Unknown:good and beneficial. And yet, I think we get criticized for
Unknown:adding complexity. And it's like, no, it's actually not
Unknown:complexity, like naming something is so important. I
Unknown:mean, amount, your name is the most precious thing you can hear
Unknown:as a human, you know, and imagine not having a word for
Unknown:how you identify. And so when you try to explain this to
Unknown:people, they're like,
Unknown:where does it end? And it's a slippery slope. And we're
Unknown:recognizing people too much. And we're allowing too much freedom
Unknown:for expression. And I'm like, are we really having this guy?
Kim Clark:Can you hear yourself? Do I need to play this
Kim Clark:really? much freedom? Really, really? So tell us about these
Kim Clark:peaks and valleys and what have you seen and and how would you
Kim Clark:describe where we are now and where we need to go? Especially
Kim Clark:I'm thinking of next year, like we're recording this in the fall
Kim Clark:of 2023. This is a year ahead of the presidential election in the
Kim Clark:US, for example.
Unknown:Yeah, that's the crystal ball question, isn't it?
Unknown:You know, we have this big thing looming. Next year and we none
Unknown:of us knows where it's going and and what it will mean. And
Unknown:there's a lot of debate about whether, depending on the
Unknown:outcome, whether or not it will juice up the To the DEI
Unknown:conversation again, or whether it will hurt it or, you know, be
Unknown:the wind beneath its wings. It's we're in a bit of the doldrums.
Unknown:Now. I mean, I would say it's worse than doldrums. I mean,
Unknown:we're we have active, active pushback, more, more, more well
Unknown:funded, more strategic than I think we've ever seen. And, and
Unknown:it's, uh, for every action, there's a reaction, you know,
Unknown:that's the Newton's law. It is real. And we know with
Unknown:hindsight, we should have seen it coming, you know, we should
Unknown:have expected it's coming. Because we know that that's
Unknown:that's the way the pendulum swings around. So, but I guess
Unknown:it has never been so sort of clearly binary before, because
Unknown:we've never had an incident like 2020, George Floyd, you know,
Unknown:coming on the heels of the beginning of the pandemic, and
Unknown:just the state that we were in that year, there was an
Unknown:openness, there was a truth telling, there was a purging,
Unknown:there was a sort of explosion of, of these truths. And there
Unknown:were circumstances that allow that to happen. And that was so
Unknown:rare and so special. So difficult, so amazing, so
Unknown:transformative. And yet, we sort of some of us ran really fast
Unknown:ahead, you know, we thought this is our moment, you know, we need
Unknown:to pack everything in, we
Unknown:need to tell everybody everything, we need to tell
Unknown:everyone that they're, you know, racist, because we grew up in
Unknown:this is that racist society. And there were books and there were
Unknown:there was so
Unknown:much, that was good. And I think there was so much truth in what
Unknown:we talked about. And looking back as communicators back to
Unknown:this, did we did we bring everyone along? Did we kind of
Unknown:slow down to speed up? Did we meet people where they're at,
Unknown:which is one of my most critical theories that I operate in,
Unknown:which is, you know, meeting folks where they're at and
Unknown:giving them the pieces to progress. But, you know,
Unknown:calibrating with that, because if you don't, then you just
Unknown:overwhelm the system, and you create a lot of resistance where
Unknown:you didn't really need to. But I don't think there was a
Unknown:readiness, we all know this, I think there was not a readiness
Unknown:on the part of a lot of people for what 2020 2021 taught us.
Unknown:There just wasn't a readiness, there wasn't a resilience to it.
Unknown:There wasn't the ability to digest, like meal after meal
Unknown:after meal of new information, self reflection, feelings and
Unknown:emotions around, wow, this role was messed up. I didn't know I
Unknown:haven't been impacted in this way. What do I do? I mean, the
Unknown:overwhelm for all of us, you know, was really intense. So it
Unknown:was just a very, very unique time. February, you know, like I
Unknown:said, you know, it really important time, but I think
Unknown:looking back, all of our the enthusiasm and the progress is
Unknown:now being challenged. And we could have foreseen that. And I
Unknown:don't know what I would do differently. But I do think
Unknown:there's always lessons, there's always lessons, you know, we
Unknown:have to be humble, to the fact that we don't have all the
Unknown:answers about how we created change how we facilitated and
Unknown:shepherded change in that time. And now, this feels really
Unknown:painful and really difficult to be in a place of having these
Unknown:things be challenged in such a well funded and organized way.
Unknown:And it's really, it's, it's, it feels harder than it should
Unknown:feel. And I don't want to be here. And I want to be where we
Unknown:thought we would be. Perhaps some of us where we thought we
Unknown:were where we where we expected ourselves to be. And yet, and
Unknown:yet what it what a really important lesson for balance and
Unknown:for meeting folks where they're at, and having to go back to go
Unknown:forward and going slow to go fast. And all those things that
Unknown:I also believe in. So I find myself having like, you know,
Unknown:back to basics, conversations with some folks and but I'm
Unknown:really grateful actually, that some things are being said and
Unknown:questioned because those things were silent before but perhaps
Unknown:now they're coming out. And, and we can't deal with anything and
Unknown:heal anything, explain anything, support anything if we don't
Unknown:know it exists. And it's not being said. So part of this is
Unknown:really for change makers, this is a really important moment to
Unknown:kind of give some things some some breathing room, and to go
Unknown:back to go forward. But previous to 2020. There were other kinds
Unknown:of ebbs and flows right dei has always been attached to the
Unknown:economy, and how companies are feeling and doing so in my role.
Kim Clark:Yeah, that's good. Can you dive a little bit deeper
Kim Clark:in there? Because I think people don't necessarily connect those
Kim Clark:dots.
Unknown:Oh, yeah, that's so important to know. It's one on
Unknown:one at least in my world. And the end if you ask anyone and
Unknown:talent and leadership and HR even, I think the more strategic
Unknown:work ebbs and flows with how confident and well funded
Unknown:companies are feeling, right and how it to me it's like Maslow's
Unknown:hierarchy. It's the food, shelter, water, the bottom, and
Unknown:then it's the self actualization. as you move up,
Unknown:and companies go through that same, that same process of kind
Unknown:of toggling between, are we just sort of paying basic attention
Unknown:to staying alive, or do we feel that we're staying alive? We've
Unknown:got excess bandwidth, money, etc to focus on. Okay, now, how do
Unknown:we do this better for the long term thinking versus like the
Unknown:short term firefighting that you're doing when you're in
Unknown:economic duress? So, you know, as the economy goes up and down,
Unknown:we get more or less funded for the work because this to me is,
Unknown:and look, I can argue, you know, you and I would argue this is
Unknown:food, shelter, water, this is d&i is essential. Yes, I'm just
Unknown:speaking from their point of view, that it is not viewed that
Unknown:way. So we float along, we unfortunately have, you know,
Unknown:the huge ebbs and flows that we've experienced based on that,
Unknown:and it makes it really hard to run a business in the space
Unknown:speaking as a business owner, because it's just completely
Unknown:unpredictable. And you have to your shop has to be nimble,
Unknown:flexible, you have to have a flexible workforce of 1090,
Unknown:nines and employees, and you constantly have to be like,
Unknown:making really hard decisions, and you have to be ahead of the
Unknown:curves. So you need to be able to look into the future and say,
Unknown:Well, you know, what changes do I need to make now in order to
Unknown:ride through the storm that's coming, and yet, keep the work
Unknown:alive and keep the community alive and continue to keep
Unknown:myself, you know, healthy, because too, it feels really bad
Unknown:to be sidelined like this, it feels it is the furthest thing
Unknown:from validating to feel like you ebb and flow with the
Unknown:vicissitudes of the economy, you know, because what kind of
Unknown:messages that said that this work isn't always important that
Unknown:it's only important when I've extra, you know, to give to it?
Unknown:No, but so we have to cope with that, and that doesn't feel
Unknown:good, doesn't feel good.
Kim Clark:No, and to also know that there's a line item within
Kim Clark:the legal budget, and for anti discrimination, for harassment
Kim Clark:for all kinds of employee relations issues, that is
Kim Clark:consistently well funded. And, uh, even a percentage of that
Kim Clark:going towards the AI, right, would prevent a lot of that end
Kim Clark:behavior. Right. You know, so it's like, just working with,
Unknown:it's so true, what you say, like, you know, it's, it's
Unknown:a, it's a small percentage of that to ensure that problems
Unknown:don't happen, but we're just not companies are so short term, and
Unknown:they're thinking and it's almost like they're based on their
Unknown:behavior, they would rather fight fires then address the
Unknown:upstream, cause, you know, they rather deal with the symptoms
Unknown:and the after effects. But by then the damage is done by then
Unknown:you've lost the key people by then you had the reputational
Unknown:nightmare, you know, and so I know, the the, what are the
Unknown:things that I'm not forgetting this, there's a phrase about
Unknown:like, a pound, an ounce of prevention, and a world of hurt
Unknown:when you don't make that investment. And you and I know
Unknown:that but it's a constant struggle to say, you know, make
Unknown:this investment in your people so that they know, not only the
Unknown:baseline of what's Okay, and what's not okay, but what
Unknown:inclusive leadership really looks like in practice and make
Unknown:that investment so that, you know, you don't have the issues
Unknown:on the back end. But I don't know, it feels very cynical the
Unknown:way that most decisions are made to kind of cya and check that
Unknown:box. And we're still in the land of what we call performative
Unknown:Dei, which is that surface that superficial, that compliance
Unknown:driven and I feel like we're back to 2019 1817, a lot of us
Unknown:are talking about how this feels like a big rewind. Back to that
Unknown:kind of thinking. And like, the question is being asked now,
Unknown:like, what was really gained over the last couple of years
Unknown:when we find ourselves where we are now. And I that's, that's a
Unknown:very depressing way to look at it. But it's what it feels like,
Unknown:and I'm sure it's not true. We established a new water line, a
Unknown:new watermark, right, a new threshold in the last couple of
Unknown:years. And this may just be a giant pendulum swing, but when
Unknown:it comes back, I, I hope it comes back further, because we
Unknown:made all that progress in those years, you know, the last couple
Unknown:of years ago, but I don't know, it's anyone's guess, and next
Unknown:year is going to have a lot to do with with what, what that
Unknown:answer is.
Kim Clark:Yeah, absolutely. I feel I agree with everything
Kim Clark:that you said. And one of the key points of of what the summer
Kim Clark:of 2020 really reflected it was basically a mirror of kind of
Kim Clark:the Great White awakening. Right You know, so there was this, you
Kim Clark:know, this is really a call to action for people who look like
Kim Clark:me to, to learn what they have been not aware of for a long
Kim Clark:time and then turn that into behavior. But then we just kind
Kim Clark:of went home and we left all that space open. That is now
Kim Clark:funded, strategize core needed to fill with rhetoric that is an
Kim Clark:accurate that is, you know, copy and paste from playbooks that
Kim Clark:has been used over not only just decades, but centuries and
Kim Clark:generations, just copy, paste, copy, paste, copy, paste is the
Kim Clark:same thing. It's the dehumanization of language, etc.
Kim Clark:But this was a reflection to say this is going on, who are we in
Kim Clark:this? The change has happened? We thought we are farther along.
Kim Clark:Wait, we're not as far along? Wait, I'm uncomfortable. I have
Kim Clark:an edge. Wait, wait, wait. And and then it's like, okay, as my
Kim Clark:as my mentor says, progress is not linear. It's a site gets a
Kim Clark:spiral. And so yes, we're going back. But as we turn around that
Kim Clark:corner, we want to take more of us with us. So you're right, I
Kim Clark:completely agree with you that that all of this that is now
Kim Clark:filling that void that we left as we walked away and went home,
Kim Clark:is is filled with what was already there. So also to kind
Kim Clark:of utilize a quote from my mentor, based on what you just
Kim Clark:talked about, whatever needs to be healed will be revealed. So
Kim Clark:that's what's happening. And and, and it's just a matter of
Kim Clark:us taking responsibility that we're having each of us are
Kim Clark:having a different experience. So to some of us, it's shocking
Kim Clark:that other people don't get the point of the AI. But there's so
Kim Clark:many people who look like me, who genuinely don't understand
Kim Clark:the benefits and the value of the AI. And how do we make room
Kim Clark:for that as part of the conversation? Now let's talk
Kim Clark:about who you primarily work with that demographic that are
Kim Clark:in leaders, leadership boards, executives, the C suites, so
Kim Clark:you're in there with them, you are teaching them inclusive
Kim Clark:leadership, I'm sure you're getting questions, pushback,
Kim Clark:that there is an edge that is identified, there are so many of
Kim Clark:us in corporate communications work, and advise and want to
Kim Clark:coach and move our leaders forward when we're seeing our
Kim Clark:leaders lean back, and kind of adopt a duck and cover strategy
Kim Clark:when it comes to social issues and dei related topics. So we're
Kim Clark:left to our performative communication is right. You
Kim Clark:know, and and I'm hearing from regulated industries from Super,
Kim Clark:you know, traditionally conservative industries, from
Kim Clark:communicators are like, I know, we have to be doing something
Kim Clark:better, we have to get beyond that, like there's a genuine
Kim Clark:desire from communicators. But help us understand the mindset
Kim Clark:of these leaders, where they're at and what have you found? Is
Kim Clark:it going to take to help them kind of get out of the duck and
Kim Clark:cover strategy, get out of the inertia? And actually lean in
Kim Clark:and take up that space? Again?
Unknown:Yeah, it's such a good question, Kim. I really like my
Unknown:work with executive leadership teams. Just getting in there and
Unknown:eat remember, first, each person in that team is different. So
Unknown:that's one the very baseline I would give a reminder, of
Unknown:course, it stands to reason that I think that we sort of
Unknown:globalize things, we really shouldn't, because actually, our
Unknown:strategy should differ person to person. So if you've got a
Unknown:leadership team of eight people, each one of them is at a
Unknown:different place, and about different things. And so
Unknown:sometimes you'll see a gender split, you will see I often find
Unknown:myself noticing that the female leaders cisgender female leaders
Unknown:in the room will be further along and sort of aligned
Unknown:already there. And then the pushback and the questions and
Unknown:the skepticism may be coming from, you know, the cisgender
Unknown:male leaders because I'm saying cisgender because honestly,
Unknown:there's the majority cisgender people and humans in the in that
Unknown:room, and that will always be this but it is currently you're
Unknown:working to change that. But it is. So you know, I often notice
Unknown:that but not always, not always at all. Not always. And then
Unknown:you've got the really loud leaders who are the ones that
Unknown:are throwing up all the obstacles and asking you all
Unknown:their hard questions. And then the really silent ones who maybe
Unknown:made a mistake recently and don't want to say anything,
Unknown:because they're now kind of in this watchful, fearful sidelines
Unknown:place. You know, so people's intent can be and their heart
Unknown:can be in it, but they're afraid. They can be actively
Unknown:resistant, they can be cautiously supportive, and then
Unknown:they can be very overly supportive. And you've got that
Unknown:whole plethora in every team. And so anyway, just really
Unknown:fascinating. And then and then there's dynamics. Oh, of
Unknown:ethnicity. So it's majority white, in most executive
Unknown:leadership teams in most companies today. Again, this
Unknown:will change. And we're working hard to change that. But that is
Unknown:what we're met with. So there's a lot like you say, of not
Unknown:understanding the white experience, not understanding
Unknown:the privileges that come along with walking through this world
Unknown:in seemingly white identity. And I say seemingly, because there's
Unknown:a lot of invisible diversity dimensions in terms of how we
Unknown:identify. So so there's a lot of to me and my the work feels in
Unknown:those rooms, like it's a sort of massive challenge of group
Unknown:management and group dynamics. Number one, sort of noticing
Unknown:who's being heard who's not being heard, who's afraid to
Unknown:speak up. And sometimes if you have one or two executives of
Unknown:color, sometimes they will be hanging back. Because they have
Unknown:said this a million times, and they haven't been heard. And
Unknown:sometimes they will continue to say it and be very bold in the
Unknown:room. And everything in between, sometimes you'll have an out
Unknown:executive who's holding back or who is very verbal and vocal and
Unknown:proactive. So really noticing to how people's identities impact
Unknown:the way they show up in a conversation, and how strong or
Unknown:not they feel comfortable being about their own lived
Unknown:experience. And it's really interesting to speaking of
Unknown:communication, I'm in there as an external person. And I
Unknown:reflect on the role I'm playing, you know, I'm the space holder,
Unknown:I'm the Container Builder, I'm the person that's noticing, who
Unknown:sucks up all the oxygen in the room? And and I'm also thinking
Unknown:about seniority is another factor, who's the loudest voice?
Unknown:And are they the most senior person? And are they supportive
Unknown:or resistant, because sometimes, actually, the CEO is the most
Unknown:difficult person to manage. In a room like this. They have the
Unknown:authority, and if they are skeptical, and questioning, I'm
Unknown:grateful for that, because actually, that person is the
Unknown:most important person to get on board like the most. But
Unknown:sometimes you will spend a lot of time kind of navigating and
Unknown:managing their questions and their pushback. And but you know
Unknown:that it's important, you do that, because they've got to get
Unknown:their questions answered, they have to come to a place where
Unknown:you agree or disagree, they need to come to a place where they
Unknown:are leading. And this is such an important point. This is not an
Unknown:agree or disagree conversation, when you are leading an
Unknown:institution and you stand up to lead you, you sign up for that
Unknown:job, your job is actually is irrespective of your personal
Unknown:beliefs, actually, it is the values of the institution. And
Unknown:hopefully you've done values, alignment and creation, and
Unknown:everybody's participated in that. And usually these days,
Unknown:one of those values is inclusiveness called various
Unknown:things, but that is, so when you sign up to be a leader, you are
Unknown:you're charged with leading this institution through change. And
Unknown:a lot of that change is demographic change of your
Unknown:talent of your current and future employees of your
Unknown:marketplace and your buyers and your customers and your client,
Unknown:it is all changing. And I can tell you, it is changing a way
Unknown:from white cisgender male identities. So if we can all
Unknown:agree on that baseline, that's where I sort of come back to in
Unknown:these rooms, to say like, okay, we can in this room, we can have
Unknown:some conversations about beliefs and etc, you know, but at the
Unknown:end of the day, you need to make sure that this institution
Unknown:remains viable, it thrives. It is thinking ahead into the
Unknown:future, and it resonates, and you're able to come up with what
Unknown:is going to resonate with that changing world that you serve.
Unknown:And the only way you're going to be able to do that is to not
Unknown:have a homogeneous group of people at the table, creating
Unknown:products, innovating customer strategies, etc. You're going to
Unknown:miss a lot if you don't have a the diversity of that table be
Unknown:the inclusion at that table, which means I'm heard, I'm asked
Unknown:for my perspective, I can weigh in on my lived experience, it
Unknown:will be heard and acted upon, not just heard, right. And so we
Unknown:need to follow the whole logic that in that way. So that it
Unknown:gets out of this, Jennifer, this is too political. And I'm like
Unknown:how people identify and their lived experience is not
Unknown:political. And it is also not political to to make the create
Unknown:the logical argument that I just did, which I think we all agree
Unknown:on, really, which is is the furthest thing from politicizing
Unknown:something, it is really, you know, to me the SIRT the
Unknown:survival and the success of an institution in a really chaotic,
Unknown:fast changing unpredictable world. You have to sort of, you
Unknown:know, embed these truths that you know, not whether you agree
Unknown:or disagree with them, they just are which is how the world is
Unknown:changing. So, for communicators, this is what we call the
Unknown:business case what I just described to you, and returning
Unknown:to that as a very, it's a prudent practice. Because
Unknown:business leaders get it. And I also think we need to kind of if
Unknown:they try to take you off and into a rabbit hole around, you
Unknown:know, the politics of things, or there's another rabbit hole, by
Unknown:the way of, if we give people an inch around identity, they'll
Unknown:take a mile, kind of like how you were talking about Kim,
Unknown:like, where does it end? And like, how many how many
Unknown:incidences are we expected to address that are happening in
Unknown:the external world, like, you know, they they, in my book,
Unknown:they picked out this quote, most recent example, executive team I
Unknown:was working with, and there's a Latina identified employee that
Unknown:came in on a Monday morning and said, somebody asked how their
Unknown:weekend was, and there it was during 2020. And there was
Unknown:marches and so much pain, so much articulation of, of
Unknown:suffering, and she had been active and all of that over the
Unknown:weekend, and there had been violence and all the things that
Unknown:were happening. She came in, and she's like, my weekend was a
Unknown:racist, hellscape, how was yours? And these white leaders
Unknown:kind of picked up on this. And we have this whole discussion
Unknown:about the word hellscape. And this whole discussion about
Unknown:Monday, and like, what, what people are entitled to bring in
Unknown:to the workplace. And it was really so interesting to just
Unknown:dig into that and say, you know, so what do we expect people to
Unknown:sort of hide and downplay and stuff into a corner and not talk
Unknown:about? And how do we how do we want people to bring their full
Unknown:selves to work? What does that mean? Where does the where's the
Unknown:boundary? If we do one thing for one community, then what do we
Unknown:do need to do for the other communities? And, you know, and
Unknown:those that's a lot of like, tug of war, and these sessions,
Unknown:because there's a lot of discussion about it, like, does
Unknown:it matter? Is it important? How do we do it? What do we do it
Unknown:for? What if we have disagreement, we have
Unknown:disagreement around the abortion question. I mean, most of my
Unknown:cut, my clients will say, our workforce is split on this
Unknown:question. So then we say, okay, so how do we enable the
Unknown:inclusion of that, and to be heard, but then, as a company,
Unknown:what do you want your decision to be around benefits? Those two
Unknown:things can exist together and side by side? And how you
Unknown:navigate this as you can? It's not this one, or it's not a
Unknown:binary? Yes, no, we agree, we don't we say this, we don't say
Unknown:whatever. It's a lot of different things that enable
Unknown:people to be simultaneously heard and acknowledge the
Unknown:diversity of opinion. And yet at the same time, it's a choice on
Unknown:the part of the institution to go a certain way and provide
Unknown:certain things and to your point communicators need to parse this
Unknown:and communicate it in a very delicate way. And I feel for the
Unknown:communicator community, because this is hard to thread this
Unknown:needle. I mean, that's just one example of many, that there, it
Unknown:feels like you're kind of in a balancing act. And honestly,
Unknown:Kim, this is the new job of a communications professional,
Unknown:you've got to know how to advise your leaders on how to hold the
Unknown:space for all of this. And at the same time, point your arrow
Unknown:and your compass towards a future and maintaining your
Unknown:commitments to be being an employer of choice. That is
Unknown:thinking about and planning for and supporting a rapidly
Unknown:diversifying workforce and environment. So I know I can't
Unknown:like wrap this up in a nice, neat bow. But if you can ask the
Unknown:right questions, and you can kind of surface a lot of these
Unknown:things. And then keep your eye on the ball about what the
Unknown:future holds. And I think you'll be able to help your leaders,
Unknown:you know, make the right decision. And if they want to
Unknown:sit in the middle of all of this fine. Middle is okay for some
Unknown:companies, your company's in the middle, you know, you're in,
Unknown:you're figuring it out, you're doing a little of this and a
Unknown:little of that, and you're there trial balloons, and you're kind
Unknown:of trying to find your voice and, and you don't want to come
Unknown:out like gangbusters on, you know, 10 different issues
Unknown:tomorrow. And you want to take your cue from maybe these
Unknown:affinity groups that you've just formed, and they're just getting
Unknown:started. And that is fine. You need to meet the organization
Unknown:where they're at. You don't need and push a little bit. But I
Unknown:wouldn't say I would never ever say throw your leaders and your
Unknown:company into the deep end. Without having this sort of
Unknown:muscle built for the deep end. You don't want to drown in the
Unknown:deep end, you want the you want the skill to tread water there.
Unknown:And you need to assess where is the organization, where are my
Unknown:leaders? What are we ready for? What are what is not going to
Unknown:cause more resistance, but he's going to enable the majority of
Unknown:folks to feel heard to be on board, maybe not agree, but
Unknown:understand where we're going and understand that it's a
Unknown:leadership imperative. That was a long answer.
Kim Clark:There's so much good stuff in there. Some things that
Kim Clark:I want to highlight, you know, the decoupling of the pullet is
Kim Clark:politicized. I can't say that word. zation. Thank you. Thank
Kim Clark:you for that. You're on East Coast time. So you know, more
Kim Clark:common office warmer. Yeah. So yeah, it you know, that
Kim Clark:decoupling absolutely has to has to happen, because there's a
Kim Clark:created narrative that actually doesn't exist. So my being gay,
Kim Clark:or my being a woman, you know, is not, you know, in it has been
Kim Clark:my identity has been politicized. But just like being
Kim Clark:a man, being white, you know, that that is somehow exempt of
Kim Clark:being politicized. So it's just like this decoupling and being
Kim Clark:consistent about it, I think is is really key. And also, I love
Kim Clark:all the analogies around treading water. And you know,
Kim Clark:you just, it was a nice layup to the depth model that we talked
Kim Clark:about in the book, the conscious communicator. excellent book.
Kim Clark:Well, thank you for your testimonial. And Jennifer, I
Kim Clark:really, we're very, very grateful for your support of the
Kim Clark:book, for sure. And in that framework, it helps answer some
Kim Clark:of those questions. You said earlier, in that response,
Kim Clark:leaders need to have their questions answered. Now, there's
Kim Clark:two parts to it, I'm sure that you've run into as well as like,
Kim Clark:some leaders will throw out things, but they don't want to
Kim Clark:know the answer. They don't want to go, you know, it's like, it's
Kim Clark:more of just like, you know, saying something to say
Kim Clark:something, but they're not actually genuinely interested in
Kim Clark:learning. But then there are the people who the leaders who do
Kim Clark:want, you know, those questions, but they don't know where they
Kim Clark:can get those answers from in a way that they can receive them,
Kim Clark:and know what to do with it, because I want empathy for
Kim Clark:leaders, right, you know, they didn't get to be where they are,
Kim Clark:because they're incredible at di, right. It wasn't part of
Kim Clark:their performance, you know, as it climbed the ladder and
Kim Clark:promoted, it was like, you know, there was no 360 When they were
Kim Clark:a director level saying, How are you on your di skills? Here,
Kim Clark:they are now,
Unknown:good at it like yesterday, I mean, yeah, listen,
Kim Clark:and yet they have this pressure from the board's
Kim Clark:pressure from customers pressure from employees, say something,
Kim Clark:do something. So the Deaf model helps with that middle, like you
Kim Clark:were talking about, like, you know, it gets you into the work
Kim Clark:in a meaningful transformable. That's not a word
Kim Clark:transformational way. So that that was all of your points were
Kim Clark:so key. And the other part of something that I want to
Kim Clark:highlight what from what you just said is that communicators
Kim Clark:can be those advisors to help those leaders get those
Kim Clark:questions answered, they could set things up, they can engage
Kim Clark:in conversation themselves, and not let comments like, we don't
Kim Clark:want to do too much too soon. Be a decision. As you know, like,
Kim Clark:that's the end of the conversation that needs to be
Kim Clark:the beginning of the conversation. So what is too
Kim Clark:much? What is too soon? What does that look like? But the
Kim Clark:decoupling? I think that's really important for people to
Kim Clark:hear and understand. And at the same time, understand that, you
Kim Clark:know, when you were talking about the Agree, disagree, it's
Kim Clark:like my identity is not a negotiation, you know, that's
Kim Clark:not a pawn, right. It's not, that's not negotiable. And what
Kim Clark:you know, and on the abortion topic that you were talking
Kim Clark:about earlier, it's, it's this crossing of the line that we
Kim Clark:need to keep each other in check. So you can believe one
Kim Clark:way. But if I believe another way, because I'm having a
Kim Clark:different experience than you, you know, and so and then you're
Kim Clark:having a different experience than me. So where you're coming
Kim Clark:from feels very real to you. And where I'm coming from is very
Kim Clark:real for me. And then the negotiation is not on my
Kim Clark:identity, but the negotiation is how do we coexist as colleagues,
Kim Clark:to allow ourselves to honor our experiences in a way that we can
Kim Clark:coexist and thrive together in the same space? You know, that's
Kim Clark:the negotiate, that's what needs to be negotiated that when
Kim Clark:that's, that's the communication, the good
Kim Clark:negotiation is not your experience trying to legislate
Kim Clark:my experience and my decision making, you know, and vice
Kim Clark:versa. So it's a very rich conversation. Point to it
Kim Clark:language leads to behavior. That's why you know, I've so
Kim Clark:much money on the communicators and really leading this work.
Kim Clark:Okay, friends, we're actually going to pause the conversation
Kim Clark:right here. I know it is so good. And it was really building
Kim Clark:up momentum. You probably hate me right now. But the
Kim Clark:conversation when we recorded was so good. We just kept going
Kim Clark:and going. So we're going to split it the sake of your time
Kim Clark:and protecting your time. We're going to split This conversation
Kim Clark:into two different episodes so keep a lookout and find the
Kim Clark:other half and the other part of this conversation with this
Kim Clark:guest I know you're gonna love it
