Behind The Mic: Too Legitimate To Quit with Annie Ruggles

Hello hello Amplifyou family Michelle Abraham here today I was super excited. I have a behind the mic interview with you with a very special podcaster I was on her show not too long ago I had such a blast, like Annie got to bring you on amplify you. So please, please let me introduce you to Annie P Ruggles. She is the host of the podcast. That is amazing. It's called Too Legitimate To Quit. And I know there must be some MC Hammer fan and you somewhere and because that is too awesome to not be an MC Hammer fan. First of all, welcome any and then I'll tell everyone else a little bit more about you.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to get to share time with you again.

Yes, so, so awesome. I'm really excited. So guys, let me tell you a little bit more about Annie. So Annie harness her hook like disdain for hard sales and tacky self promotion, and overly competitive sleaze balls. I love that that's really descriptive as an inspiration to help people find better ways to grow their small businesses. So she's the founder of the non sleazy sales Academy just guided hundreds of people making deeper connections, lasting impressions and friendlier, more lucrative transactions and conversations. So her prior to her joy is her podcast, which I mentioned before is called Too Legitimate To Quit, which is instantly actionable small business strategies with a pop culture spin. So any I had so much fun in your podcast it we did a twist on like Back to the Future. And it was so much fun. So what the heck, like how did you merge pop culture, small business talk and make your podcast so fun.

Thank you, thank you, for all of the compliments tucked into that question. Hey. And yes, to go back to what you said, I do love me some MC Hammer, I do have a dream podcast land helped me make this happen. I have a dream that someday my podcast will have a sound bite that says, I'm MC Hammer and I endorsed this podcast, let's make that happen. But in terms of the idea for the show, I'd wanted to podcast forever. I mean, if you're listening to this show, so have you, right? Or maybe you already are and if so awesome. But I couldn't come up with what I wanted to do. And before I taught sales, I taught marketing and branding. And so that kind of stuff is a language that I'm fluent in that I'm dearly loved. And I actually missed talking about so I thought, Should I start a sales centric podcast? Or should I broaden it up and start doing this small business strategy in general, because then I can bring on people like you, then I can bring on people you know, that are graphic designers or stuff that isn't necessarily so matchy matchy was selling. And then I thought well, what could put my kind of unique stank on it. And I have always sort of loved the idea that Inspiration is everywhere. And I've gotten great, incredible things out of all of the like books that I've read by the giants of entrepreneurship. But I also can turn around and watch an episode of Golden Girls and be like, that's incredible copywriting that Sophia is using to manipulate the scene right now. And I would just for me, that was just normal. That was just how my brain went. But I realized in my teaching more and more I was finding myself saying stuff like we ever seen South Park. Can I see the sound of music, like all the time and it was always random. But normally it was in that if I was bringing it up, it was normally in that pop area, right? And so I thought there's got to be something here. So then I wanted I wanted to do the show just me doing my own like, here's my Golden Girls episode. Here's my murder. She wrote episode, whatever it may be. But then it occurred to me, even though my tastes pretty freakin broad. I don't love everything in the world. And I certainly don't know everything in the world. And so I thought, what if I bring people in, to hang out in their zone of genius, share what they want to share, and then force them with me to pull lessons out of something that they love. And that's how the show in its current format was born.

I love it. So in the actual show, we did talk about small business hog in strategies. And so we talked a lot obviously in my episode about podcasting. But we also then took a dive into Back to the Future related to business. So how can you just share with us how do you orchestrate that in a podcast episode with your with your guests?

Well, one thing that I do that I've actually been advised against by some people but I kind of hold steadfast in it is we don't really talk about the pop culture topic in most episodes, until at least two thirds of the way through. My episodes are longer. They're 45 minutes to an hour and I understand that's a long time. So I want to Make sure that it's in segments or this or that. But the reason why I bring it in how I bring it in now is that I always tell my guests, the pop culture is the gimmick, but you are my guest. And the guest is more important to me than the gimmick. Right? So when you were on my show, we had the Back to the Future twist. We had a lot of fun with that. But it's not like you and I weren't having fun talking about podcasting before that, right. And so what to me, and I'm so glad you've been on my show. So we can use it as a specific example. I want my listeners to fall in love with Michelle Abraham, they probably already love Back to the Future. Or if they don't love Back to the Future, they probably have enough of an understanding that they can either turn the episode off at that point because they've gotten what they wanted. Or they can be like, oh, yeah, isn't that the thing with the DeLorean with the guy with the hair? I remember that movie. Let's see what they have to say. And then they power through. Right. But I if I just had the entire episode be like, let's take 10 lessons out of Back to the Future, it would eat you. And I can't have that happen. Hmm,

interesting. I love the thought that you put into it. Because I never would have thought about that. It's a great, it's a great, that's a great strategy. And I love that that end of it, the twist at the end to in probably like keeps people listening longer to because they want to hear what that fun part at the end is gonna be too because they knew Yeah, if known, they now know and expect that from the end of your show. So that's super cool.

And then we throw in an actionable twist at the end. So inspired by decades of watching Jerry Springer, I decided that I wanted to end every episode of my show with a final thought like he did. And so I was like, wait, wait, wait. That's how I can make sure that the episode is actionable. Right? So like I just recorded the episode about inventing Anna, and we were talking about an Adobe, oh my God, here we go and Adobe fraud or branding. So that one was very thinkI not very dewy, lots of thinking. Right? But then I promise people instantly actionable. It's in the strapline may as well use it. So that final chunk gives me time not to quality control, because I'm doing quality control control all throughout. But I'm it's making sure that the episode is actionable. Putting a stamp on it no matter what my guest does or how they show up. Make sense?

Yep, totally makes sense. I love it. I'm only a few episodes into inventing Anna. And I'm like, I'm still confused. Whether or not is branding or fraud. I still don't know.

Branding or Friday, we did the same thing about Elizabeth Holmes of all of her whole thing is like branding or fraud, fraud, that one. And Adobe jury's still out.

That's awesome. I love it. And so now you've had a lot of growth in your podcast. So and I know you do spend a lot of time on your podcast, you're focused on it. It's your it's your baby. It's obviously it's doing super well. So what are some of the things that you have done that you can contribute can attribute to the success of your show so far?

Let me tell you what I did wrong first. If you don't mind, because I think I can't explain how I got it to work until I was explaining why right working. I was focusing a lot on content and not a lot on growth. And when I would get panicky about growth, I would just dump a bunch of money into advertising that I didn't really see go anywhere. But it made me feel better, that my air quotes growth bubble was kind of filled right, that box was checked. I realized, though, that I have these incredible guests, they want to share the show. Why am I not making sure in a more timely manner that they have what they need? Why am I not encouraging people to build community around it to do their homework together? If every episode has homework, then we should have study hall. Right? We should have come do your homework together with me. I didn't have that. I have that now, right? I didn't have the glue, honestly, to attach my podcast to my business. It I didn't think it was matchy matchy enough because I'm not teaching sales. And so I kind of hid my podcast from things like my mailing list because I was like, Oh, I don't want to annoy them. Okay. Yes, I do. Yes. I don't want to annoy them. If they're on my list, they should be hearing about my podcast. And if they don't want to hear about my podcast, then they can leave my list right but I will be high but I think the thing that I did wrong, is I was being very precious about my show and treating it like my little gorgeous baby. And so I was introducing everybody to the baby and dressing up the baby and making the baby perform. But I wasn't actually doing anything to go out to the people and be like, Hey, here's my show. So it grew well, when I was just looking at people like you to bring onto the show who then fall in love with the show and listen to the show and are on the show and love the show and promote the show. But I wasn't doing anything to random small business owner x&y to be like, Hey, I understand you're having a really stressful week, I just recorded an episode about burnout, would you like to hear it? And really honestly, that person to person connection? Seems like it would take forever. But that's when I started seeing exponential growth. When I used it as a talking point in my own frickin business.

Interesting. Did you do that, like social media groups to that you were in? Like, just listening to the conversation that was already happening, and then find some element? An episode on this?

Mm hmm. And I tried for a while to be like, Oh, you like Ryan and Stimpy. Our first episode was about Ren and Stimpy. And that worked. Okay. But the red and simpIe episode was really more about ambition shaming. And I realized that if I find a post where someone's like, I'm a small business owner, and I love red and Stimpy, then maybe they'll go listen to it. But But I have a lot better of a chance. If I go and I say, hey, looks like this guy in the comments is telling you that women shouldn't be ambitious and that you should make yourself smaller. I disagree so much. The whole episode of my podcast is about it. No pressure. But here's the link, you better believe I got a DM from that lady. I listened to six episodes in a row. I don't know how people listen to six straight hours of me Gavin, but Right. And so that's, that's because I went and said you have just like sales, you have a problem. My show aims to solve it. I don't care if that problem is making your commute better. making dinner, you know, more fun to cook or bringing a million dollars into your business. I don't care. But I had to go out for people that had those problems, instead of me relying on the gimmick of my show.

Mm, elevate. And now you do all interviews, you don't do any solo show. So as a thought leader is we're hearing a lot in the industry like that is not a good thing. Is that a bad thing? How are you feeling about not having your own solo shows?

I feel great about it, honestly, because the final thought is mine. It's always just me, it's normally about two minutes long. So it really could be a standalone podcast episode on its own if I wanted it to be. But that's just the most authentic thing I have. And so because I'm allowed to I write it myself, I record it myself. It's just me, it's off my heart, it's off my head, because I have that. And because so much of my work and other marketing is any centric. I don't feel the need to have a non interview show. At least not at this point. But I am also a human Rolodex. And the joy of podcasting for me is meeting people like you. And if I was just doing a solo show, I mean, we're about to put out our 65th episode. Congrats. Thank you that 65 Incredible brains that I get to call friends. Now, if I was just doing me shows, which would be great and would have value, I wouldn't have those 65. I mean, some of them were my friends before, but I wouldn't have by and large, at least 50 people who understand my heart understand what I'm trying to do and have some level of gratitude or care for me, because I worked hard to position them. I wouldn't have any of that.

Well said and I really like that the your final thoughts on your show, I think is a really great idea. And you record those after the episode not liable. Yeah, the person is there. Yeah.

And sometimes it's weeks after, right. And I like that too. Because, you know, really weird example, I interviewed Holly Haynes of crush the rush, who has just frickin bro. And we talked about the royal family. And when we talked about the royal family, the Harry and Megan Oprah interview was about to happen, but hadn't happened yet. And so even though I didn't make the whole final thought about it, I said, Hey, it's been a couple of weeks and said interview by now. Everybody's been all over Oprah. And this is up and it's Charles racist, we don't know. But what we do know is that how you show up for your family has to be the most important thing, even when you're running a business. And we saw with Megan and Madonna that's what could tie it in. If I had just recorded it right away. I probably still would have said something like, Well, we'll see what they say on Oprah. And it would have come out after the fact right. So it allows me to have from both a pop culture and a strategic standpoint, some distance from it, so that I come to my episodes fresh and new. So what I do is I say Me, I send the recording to my editor, the incredible Andrew Sims. I sent it to him, just the interview. That's it, no front, no back. He sends me like the mix down all these different things. I sit there, like I would be any other podcast listener, and I listened to my own show. And then I base the final thought and the homework on what comes up for me, as a listener to my own show. And I have to remember to turn on kind of my beginner mind and be like, well, you know, make sure that you're not talking about yourself too much on your website seems really obvious to me, but it's not to other people who have been told it's all about you. It's all about you. It's all about you. So that's one of the reasons I really like to listen to my show. Asker. And then at this point, you know, I send it back to him Thursday, Friday, the show comes out Monday, fresh. Hmm,

I love that that's a really great strategy, so that you're listening as a listener. I know so many people, myself included, I will never listen back to another episode. But but if I was doing the final thought, I would think that's a really strong, that's a really smart move, because then you're listening with a fresh mind. And like a few few days later, or a few weeks later, where like, you've kind of like let the episode settle. And then you can listening with new ears and a new mindset with the intention of getting some homework and some some actionable goals from it, too. I think that's really great. was smart. Yeah, you're so much fun, so smart. And you know, I think I think one of the things that you do most brilliantly, is that you really let your whole personality shine in your episodes. And so I've talked a little bit about that, because I think some people kind of like hold themselves back. Or maybe we're only getting a three quarters of a wild Oh, much more wild behind that.

Oh, my God. So I'm so glad you're asking me this. Because I just everyone's been saying like, Annie, you need to be on tick tock, you need to do this, you need to do that. And I'm like, that sounds exhausting. But what I realize is that, like, I refer to myself as a salesman bit, because I'm very uppity. And what I realize is that one of the things I love about the podcast in recording the interviews is just, I think the number one word people would use to describe me as enthusiastic. And that enthusiasm is genuine. And if I bring someone onto my show, I am genuinely giddy about what they have to share with my audience. And so that comes across. And it's not that we can't keep it real. If someone's talking about, you know, something triggering or traumatic. I'm not going to be like I write like, Tell me more. But most of the time, like when you and I were on, you would drop these like epic beautiful mic drops. And what can I do? I could sit there and I could be like, Well, Michelle, beautiful point. That's not what I do naturally. So what I do instead, is I go, like, lean away from my mic as much as I can. So what I started doing is the Annie soundbite of the week. And so what I started doing is I pulled up my phone and I go very deadpan and I go, the weirdest sound I made on my own podcast this week was and I'll play the sound and I'll be like, what I hear what made me make that noise. Legitimate to quit, right? Because I can do that because I'm allowing my enthusiasm to come. And I'm not worried so much about being air quotes professional. Now. It scares me sometimes that with all of my loud, loud, loud, nasal muddiness that it might be kind of hard on the listener. So sometimes I try to tone it down a little bit. And then people ask me if I'm not feeling well,

you know, feeling good, any you're not so crazy.

Like, you're I was sometimes a little low energy, or you're right. I'm like, Yeah, I just thought your ears might be bleeding that last week, but you know what, um, but but for me, it's just, I'm glad it comes across as as me because it is me because what I'm doing in those interviews, is I'm just being totally present. And I think that's another thing that I really love about my show is that there's only one scripted question similar to what we're doing right now, right? Like, you know, me and I know you and so we have an idea of what we want to talk about. But right now we're wandering through what you think people will hear what comes out of my mouth, right? So as such, all I have to do in that then I don't have to worry about getting from question a two question be the question Caesar the clothes. I just asked in the opening question, rev them up and let them go. And then my job as interviewer is just to be present. That's it. And I feel like I know myself well enough to know if I have to be like, Oh my god, I have 17 questions in two minutes, then I'm not going to be present. I'm not really going to be fully listening, but that's just me. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. I can

really relate to like you have too many questions like ready you're focused on what the next questions gonna be? Not really. Listening to what the answer isn't. That's a huge mistake I made like, before I started my podcast when I was interviewing on a summit and I remember my gosh, it was actually someone who was one of our clients now, back then was like a big celebrity. And I was like, so nervous to interview him. And he had such a good media bikes that I was like, Okay, so that's so quick. I'm not ready for the next question. It was the worst interview ever.

Oh, my God. I mean, that happens all the time. Like to the point where we just lean into it. Right. So like, everybody has mic drops. I don't know why I just for a while I started calling them tote bags. Because everywhere I went, I saw like, white women with tote bags was sayings on them. And I was like, yeah, it's a tote bag. Like that's a perfect tote bag. I don't know where that came from. But now all I have to do is if somebody says something brilliant, I just scream top bag, and then just give myself a minute to breathe. But also, I don't try to hide that like, nor do I edit it out. Right. So if you say something freaking brilliant. And it blows my mind. There will be dead air as I go. Well, holy stinking hack. Like, I don't even know how to come back from that answer. Michelle, like I don't even know. You threw me for such a loop there with your brilliance. I kind of forgot we were recording for a minute. I'm just honest about it.

I love it. Someone is so you guys, if you haven't listened to any show, you gotta go listen to it. We'll put links to it in the chat. It is it is awesome. Any I like how your whole show is gonna have like your sound bites are gonna have its own the whole show too. Right? Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Now we were talking about how you and I kind of have a similar thought about podcasting. We're like the whole world. So focus on downloads. But really, what's really fascinating about podcasting is like the people you meet through through your interviews and through your podcast. So using podcasting as a tool for networking, has that grown your businesses even podcaster?

Oh, my goodness, yes. I've hired people that I've met through podcasting, both in and out. I've hired people I've interviewed people that have interviewed me, I've hired them, same vice versa, right. They've hired me when I was on their show, they came on my show and hired me like, whatever. But really, it's not even who hired who it's having. Podcasting, and sitting down to interview with someone really can be it's not always, but it really can be a galvanizing experience for a new relationship. And when you're sitting there with someone in their zone of brilliance, you get to know them at lightning speed. And they get to know you at lightning speed. So you cut through all the professional preamble. Oh, hey, I saw you at the thing. And I thought you might look cool years an email, maybe sometime, we should have a 15 minute catch up call. Now, man, we just talked for an hour, I know the name of your kids, right? It's different. It's got a different feel to it. And it's got reciprocity in it. You showed up for me, I showed up for you. We already showed up for each other. So let's keep showing up for each other. And that, to me has been invaluable. I get more referrals from podcast hosts and guests, right? I get more invitations from podcast hosts and guests, I get introduced to more people because they go anyway, you and I were just doing this in the pre chat you should have so and so on your show and you'd be really great on this show. We just do that naturally now. Because if we were all living in the same town, we'd be like Well, let's go down to the corner bar and hang out and I'll bring a couple friends and you bring a couple of friends. We don't we live all over the world. So what do we have podcasting? Mm hmm.

I love it. Yeah, you know, you said that perfectly. Podcasting is like the now now like the the afterwork hanging out or the bar on the corner of the street they you know frenzies to go to and I know what I love about the podcasting space to everyone who's involved in it seems so nice like everyone's like very like yeah, like let me look out for you. Who else should I connect you with? Who else do you want to hear? What other shows you need? You know what are the guests you need? Everyone's so like considering looking out for each other and just like you know not there's no zero competitiveness even though Yeah, show and I have a show and we might be in the same same space. Like there's no competitiveness, which I love. But you're showing

my show can be cousins, you're showing my show can be siblings. One of my very favorite things to do is showcase my swaps, right? So when this episode comes out, not only am I going to promote this episode, I also additionally, I'm going to be like looking for a great twofer. Here's me on amplify you. Here's Michelle on to TKO bam, right. Here's us times two, and and that feels really good and special and loving and non competitive. And at the end of the day, yeah, non competitive. Guess what? I'm not gonna wake up tomorrow and be Brene Brown. I'm not I'm not gonna Have her success by tomorrow, therefore trying to have the number one business podcast for women in the world. And it's not just for women, but like, let's look at ranking, right? I'm never ever, ever, ever, ever going to be Joe Rogan. Never Never I will know. Be Right. Like, that's what pocket if you think that podcasting is a competitive sport, then I hope you realize your competitor is Joe Rogan. Because your competitor is not Michelle Abraham, your competitor is not Annie P. Ruggles. We are collaborators who both love the same medium, and have been lucky enough to collaborate with each other. But at the end of the day, I go and listen to other people's podcasts with all and admiration because I know how much work goes into it. And I want to make sure they get the guests they need. And I want to make sure they get the exposure they need. So I'm name dropping their shows on my show or in my social, it doesn't feel like it's taking anything away from TLT cue to be like, Y'all gotta go over there to amplify you and figure out what they're doing. They got two different shows. They're both great. Right, but what does that take away from me? Nothing.

Right? Yeah. And everyone's so focused on the downloads these days that it's nice to, it's refreshing to have a different point of view. And something that I feel like not I mean, we talk about it a lot in some of our classes, but it's because we're in the podcasting space. But I feel like outside of this not really talked about a lot the magic is in the relationships that are being made in the podcasts experience in the exchanges over anything. That's what really moves the needle in your business. When it comes to podcasting,

and on the guesting side as well. It's a reason it's a call to be a guest on a smaller show. Right? Like, again, we all want to be on show freaking Rogan. I mean, I don't I know you don't. But you know, a lot of us want to be on that Top 1% Top 5% Show and those shows are great. And those shows have value. Right? But the relationship can be just as strong, if not infinitely stronger when you're one of somebody first time guests.

Totally. Yeah, not to mention that the first 10 episodes usually the most listened to episodes of a podcast.

And so you know, as such, people come to me all the time ago, should I pitch for this show? If this and that and I go, you should have just stop? What should I pitch to the show? If you like the show, then the answer is yes. Well, like one on Listen, nodes in the Listen score is not very high. It's about the relationship, the interview, and it going out as marketing is a bonus. Right? Especially if someone is new to podcasting or new to the business. Somebody like you those little shows you'd clean up.

Yeah, and you know, it's interesting, because I always I, it's great, I have one very successful podcast guests that we help him get on shows. And it's interesting, his attitude different than the other guests that we manage. And his attitude is I'll get on any show, because I will impact someone in their audience. And I'll have a create a relationship with the host. That's the attitude, which I love. Because not like about the 10th the numbers and it's not about how many in the audience. You know, oftentimes those bigger shows too don't have they have a disconnect with their audience. They don't kind of don't have the same sort of dedicated following, and sometimes a smaller show does. So it's interesting, that attitude, and I was just refreshing to hear other people have similar thoughts on how to kind of navigate your way into relationships. It's like, do you want to be in a relationship with this person? Does this person look like a cool person to hang out with and be friends with? Dan? Yes, pitch them? If not, then don't?

Yes. And same on the hosting side. I get hit up for people on TLT queue all the time. And most of the time, if I get something from you, like somebody from you, or somebody from the team in interview connections, or somebody that I've worked with somebody that I know, that's going to get fast tracked, you would not send me someone without being like, they have a sense of humor, they won't again, he's obnoxious, they'll lean into it, right? Like you'll know. But a lot of the time when I do get hit up or if I'm looking around, I don't go to social media metrics first to be like, Oh my God, this person only has 400 people on Instagram can put them on my show. They won't share it. Yes, they will. Yes, they will. The myth of the big guest is real. I have interviewed some fabulous, very famous people on my show, and they were wonderful guests and I was an honor to interview them. And they shared the show and I got maybe two three listens. You bring somebody onto your show with Instagram 400 They are going to get a frickin billboard with your face on it being like, I was just on a podcast. Ah, I have literally gotten more listens from people with no list. Why? Because they're hungrier and more excited. to be involved, right? So yes, for me, both as a guest and a host metrics are important, but they're the last thing I look at.

I love it. And he said it. metrics of the last thing she looks at us hit. You heard it here, guys. Well, any I hate to let you go, but we're often on our time and I spend so much fun. How do you want so great. And I just want to allow you to have some last words here. For those of our listeners that are sitting at home still thinking about the whole podcast thing, or new to getting started? What do you have for them?

If you've ever been told that you're a bit much welcome to podcasting, right. If you've ever been told that nobody would ever want to listen to you, you're obnoxious. You're too opinionated or too loud. Welcome to podcasting. It's an interesting road. Not everybody will get your style, but I would much rather listen to a show like mine where someone screeches and delight than another show where someone holds back. So if you're a bit much, be much don't hold back.

Yes. And let's hear any screech for us. Yes, I love it. All right. And thank you so so much for being with us today. Send us to where you want everyone to listen to your podcast,

too legitimate.com That's toolegitimate.com