Ask the Expert: Online Course Success with Jason Van Orden

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Hello, hello amplify you family. Michelle Abraham your house here today. And have I got a great ask the expert interview for you today. I've got my friend Jason Van Orden with me today. So Jason, how you doing?

I'm doing great. Thanks, Michelle, for having me.

Awesome. Well, I'm so glad you're here. We've been trying to get this interview done for a while. So I'm glad it finally worked, our schedules aligned and off we go. So let me tell you guys a little bit more about Jason. So Jason, has been podcasting for a long time. He had a really big podcast a while ago, and has done amazing things. And now he has a podcast called Impact, which is awesome. And he helps visionaries really, with their impactful ideas, help them create an online course monetize their mission, their message, so that they can really get out there in the world. And so obviously, you're hearing things me saying things that we also do, which is why we connected because we have the same kind of people, we work with the same hopes of people that we want to work with, that are out there making a big impact in the world. So I love what you're up to Jason and tell us a little bit more about like why online courses? Like what made you focus on that? Yeah, so

like you said, I had that previous podcast, internet business mastery, which was focused on like the beginning entrepreneur, just getting started and I loved for, you know, good 10 or 11 years focusing on that podcast in that business. And then around 2015, I was just ready for a shift, new challenges, I guess I was just ready to work with a different audience. And so shifted to working with established experts, coaches and consultants who had a mission, a message, a story, a methodology that they really wanted to get out there. Now to specifically your question, the reason I started focusing on online courses, is because I find it such a high leverage activity to do meaning there's a lot that comes out of if a coach or consultant focuses some energy on creating that scalable program, because not only does it create a scalable program that allows you to serve more people reach more people and grow your income, but also really forces you to get to systematize, your thought leadership, your thinking your ideas, and understand how it is that you get results for your clients. So now you can translate that into a new format and continue getting those consistent results. Even if you're not involved on a high level one to one type capacity. And we all know that to grow a business, you got to systematize your operations. And sometimes we don't think about how, if you've got a business based on your ideas on your thought leadership, you also need to systemize that piece, as well. So by working on the online course, we create that signature process, we package up what's unique about what you do, and then you know, package it in an offer that's scalable. And also it forces, I always do a bit of market research early in the process, it just forces kind of realign the marketing, the messaging for your marketing and sales. Because when you're going from one to one to one to many, you often need to optimize and upgrade your marketing systems as well in order to keep those programs filled and to be able to continue to grow. So it's a high leverage activity that out of that, it just impacts so much of your business model, you know, how you deliver deliver value, how you attract people, how you inspire them to do business with you, and so forth. So that's it was just a nice, clear, concise thing to put out there. And I wanted to help more people reach the people that they're uniquely fit to serve in the world. And that just seemed like a great way to do it. That's that's been my focus.

I love your answer because it's kind of like podcasting where like you evolve out loud as you're podcasting, right. And you have more like clarity and confidence in your mission and your messaging, your impact that you want to make. And so I really hadn't really thought about online courses in that way. But it really helps you create your process for your signature, your signature framework that you have, like and for me, it's been that's been a really hard for me to get out of my head and onto into an online course. And someone said it to me perfectly the other day, she said, you know, as we're scaling here, she said you they need to hear the vibration of your voice or through your content, but you don't have to be delivering it every time. And as it's like yes, of course. Like, I'm one of those dumb people that like, does the same workshop 100 times without recording. I'm done with that, that way of doing business because it's not efficient. And it's like easy path to burnout. Right? Right. Totally. Yeah.

By turning your ideas into frameworks into models into things that whether you're applying them or maybe even people on your team, or eventually you license or you bring other coaches in, you know, this is how you create a scalable organization based on your ideas. But it all starts by needing to systematize your your thinking in your approach things.

Yeah. Do you recommend online courses for people that are just kind of starting out in business since then haven't really like had that experience? Working with people one on one, but they have this idea in this process? Or is it more rather reserved for the people that have been doing it hundreds hours, hundreds of hours into this like system and process that now they are ready to duplicate? Is there a better way to a better position to be in?

Yeah, so I think it is a good idea to have worked with people directly done some one on one work, even though that's not the business model that you want, because in that close and closely working with people, I think that that is where you find where you create the greatest value and really work out your best ideas for generating results for your clients. That phase may be shorter for some longer for for others. And of course, it all depends on on, you know, your the kind of business what kind of lifestyle you want, the kind of income you want to make, the kind of impact you want to have will determine your business model. But probably like coming out of the gate within an online course, in the very beginning might not be the best move just because you maybe haven't dialed in, again, your signature methodology for generating results. So I always recommend that people first at least do a little bit of that one on one work, and then they start translating that into a more scalable offer after that. And the nice thing is then that once you do formalize that into a course I find that then my for me and my clients, then it suddenly makes your one on one work easier as well, because you have all these tools that you've created now that you're drawing from or, you know, instead of having to teach the same things over and over on calls with with clients, you know, I get to say, hey, watch these couple of videos, do these couple of frameworks and then show up for an hour. And we're gonna go deep and focus on the strategy and the mindset and the things that the calls are best for. And then all the like learning and kind of mechanics, that stuff has been streamlined because of creating a course and tool. So it goes both ways in terms of one on one influencing the online course that you create. And then when you create the online course, and all the resources for that, that then it just it streamlines also your one on one work if you continue to do some of that as well.

That's awesome. I love it, it just really seems like you're just gonna make your business so much more efficient. When you have an online course it forces you to create all those things. How realistically, like I know it, this is a crazy question, because people's content varies, but like on average, like how much time needs to go into creating an online course.

Yeah, it's gonna depend on to the the extent of the course and how what the results and outcomes are that you are generating. But I will say this, like, it doesn't need to take as long as a lot of people are thinking, one reason why I set out to create the best frameworks I could forge for creating online group programs and online courses was that I saw too many people who really had important stuff to get out there in a bigger way. But they were resisting, creating the scalable program or getting derailed because they are worried about like, the tech or they're just different questions that started coming up. And so then it just keeps getting kicked down the road or they avoid them, it just gets drawn out and they spend more time and money and things than they need to. I'm a big fan of do some good customer research. If you've already been working one on one with people, you also have a good idea of what their needs are, what the challenges are, what the outcomes are that they want, and then get a prototype out there in the market as quickly as possible. So rather than feeling like oh, I've got to create all the videos or all the assets and all the resources before I can launch this thing. It just figure, hey, look, I want to make a program that helps this type of person reach this type of outcome. Let me see if I can find half a dozen people or 10 people, whatever, to go through an initial pilot cohort, go ahead and just run those calls live you know, if you think it's like yeah, this is the kind of process that we need eight weeks to guide them from A to Z to the result and great maybe it's one call a week that's a combination of a bit of training and some q&a and discussion and see how that goes right and use that to really kind of prove out the material see where you might have some things to adjust and then you can take that and leverage it into creating a more produced course after that so you know even though I can maybe give like a well this is how much you know how many weeks or months or whatever the one thing I can say as well I have helped clients get something out there and as little as a few weeks when they've got you know if they've got a less stuff they're already working with and now they just need to package up in a new way can happen relatively quickly, especially if you take that minimum viable product pilot launch approach, which is what startups do all the time for, you know, the the apples and Amazons and all the you know, in other software startups, right. They start with a prototype, and then they enter, they iterate from there based on what they're learning directly. And the way they're co creating the product with their customers based on watching their customers use it and also the needs that come up. So get something out there quicker than you think. And don't get bogged down in filling it, you got to create everything or the perfect course before you launch it.

Right? Not perfectionism is stagnation, right? Causing me to stop in your tracks. I know, familiar with that, from people watching podcasts. Same thing, so I'll show you right. Yes. So it's interesting. You know, this is perfect timing for this conversation secretly, this conversation is for me, because we're just in the middle of doing this, we've been doing the same thing over and over and over again, one on one, and we used to do online, like group programs, but what I got tired of is that perpetual cohort needing to fulfill that. So is there like, with like, what's working right now? Is it lad that evergreen enrollment? Is it like a cohort kind of style, like what's working out there right now that you are seeing? Yeah, and

the truth is, both those models work. And there are advantages and disadvantages, advantages to each my programs, I do launch them as cohorts. And I really like guiding a group of people through the process together. Now that does mean that you know, I'm doing a promotion a campaign every couple of months or a few months to fill a new program. But you know, any business needs to do business development continually be bringing those new leads in and the email list in and then I also have a client right now that I'm working on where she wants something that is more evergreen, and we're designing in such a way that new people can come in and still even be interacting with people already in the course and have that just be a rolling thing. But habit, you know, if somebody's ready, sometimes you might have people like she's in the divorce market, right, like helping people get through a divorce in a much less stressful way. If someone needs help figuring out what's How do I do this divorce thing? Like they probably want help now. And we play Hey, yeah, my next cohorts, three months, rolling on hiring a lawyer tomorrow, I need some help now. Right. So we're making something that's rolling in that case. So you know, the advantages to the cohort based launch model is that some people they like, there's great value in having a group of people all together going through a process, and also gives a bit of incentive for people to to decide like, hey, is this something I want to do right now we're not I'm not into like pressuring or manipulating anybody, but there's just that naturally built in deadline for people to go like, yeah, now's the time or not. Whereas rolling. You know, if people just know what's always available, sometimes they keep putting off signing, you know, and that just means that you, you just have to be either way, you've got to be on top of your lead generation, or on top of following up with people. So there's always going to be ongoing marketing and sales, there's no such thing as like, purely passive, Hey, I just got this evergreen passive thing going. So it just depends on your business model where you thrive what your audience needs into deciding between those, those two, those two models?

Well, as far as delivery goes, is, like, are you recommending that people pre record something, and then they're the people in the chorus are gone watch something, and then they come to a live call? Is that? Is that what you recommend?

That is what I do. I'm a big fan of kind of that hybrid model i Yeah, more and more, the purely digital people just go through it on their own kind. Of course, people have struggled with that a lot. It's, it's hard to get through it, right. And so having some form of ongoing support, and there's a lot of ways to give great support to your clients without overwhelming your time and energy. And you know, might just be like the these occasional q&a calls or discussion calls. But what I do is when I when I launch a cohort, they get access to the first module each, that means watching handful of trainings, going through a couple worksheets or frameworks, having you know, those those bits done, and then coming to a call where we get to focus on answering questions giving feedback discussing the material, and it's called reverse reverse classroom or is one of the terms for it, and yeah, love that. But there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of research that shows that that leads to better outcomes and better retention of the materials and engaging with it that way. Not to say that there might not be cases where like a little digital course that people go through on their own or just apply on their own isn't still appropriate in your business. But having some ongoing support and element as is, is suggested. Now maybe you teach live I prefer to Yeah, they learn off line on their own and then we come together to engage with the material but some people prefer to go ahead just teach it live on Zoom and answer the questions there. But these are all the other questions that I answered with clients and it's just again based on their audience and them and how they want things to work in their business and their lifestyle and, and things like that. And so we You make it work with what works best for them.

That's great. I often hear like, people spend so much time on an online course. And then they launch and they hear crickets. No, that's, that's, that's our problem. Are there some things that you can give us tips to do to prevent that cricket, alleviate the feeling that there'll be crickets once you launch?

Absolutely. One of the biggest things is do proper customer discovery. And so what does that mean? Well, you know, I'm sure we've heard a que yo can run a survey to people on your list and stuff that can certainly give you some initial ideas. But here's what I recommend is that, okay, when you're going to make a new offer, you're really trying to identify two key things. So if you identify these two key things, you're gonna be way ahead of the curve of having something that your audience really wants. So you got to know who is this for? And if at all, is this like, oh, it could be anyone, it could be everyone's like, No, this is for professionals who are busy working out their desks, and you know, they're worried about like, their, their health and stuff. And so they want to or they're stressed out all the time, and they want like breathing techniques and yoga and, and stuff to help with that versus, you know, that's different than say, like, you can have a yoga course, but could be for a lot of different ways that your that your yoga course could serve or like a digital photography course, if somebody said, Hey, would a digital photography course go well online? And be like, I don't know who's it for? Right? Is it for the amateur who wants to start making some money with their hobbies so they can pay for all the expensive gear that they want to buy? Is this for parents who are having a kid and they want to know how to take great pictures for memories of their kid? Is this for the already professional wedding photographer who wants to learn to take better pictures or be more efficient with their workflow so that they can work with more clients and get things done fast? Like, those are all different awnings of who is it for as number one? And then number two is? What are the outcomes that the course is going to deliver? Like they're not buying the topic, they're not buying your expertise they're buying? Because there's some future that they want to create for themselves with your help, right? So is there a transformation? Are there specific results is a relief from certain pains and symptoms or things, you know, mental, emotional, physical, that they want to get away from other new opportunities and possibilities that are going to be opened up to them, thanks to your course. Now, going back to customer discovery, well, how do you know? What are those outcomes in the words that they describe them? Right? Like, there might be what you know, they need as well as what they want, right? And so you need to know like, how are they describing, where they're at where they want to go and why they're struggling to get there. And you do that by interviewing people in your market. So this could be current clients, past clients, or just people maybe who haven't worked with you as well, but that you know, that they fit the definition of this person, you know, you can serve best. And you just ask them about their experience. Tell me about your biggest challenges when it comes to x, you know, x being the area that you want to help them with, tell me the last time you went about trying to, you know, reach such and such goal, what happened? What have you tried before? What went well, what didn't go well. And the better you understand all that stuff, the better helps you identify, Okay, here's what they want. Here's how they describe it, here's what's missing for them. So I can ensure that I include not only what I know they need, but also what they're saying that they want. Because as experts, the farther we go along science shows that we there's a gap between where they're at and how we're thinking about the matter. Like we just forget what it's like to be somebody who doesn't know everything that we know. So that reconnects us with that ideal prospect helps us realign. And that's one of the most important things you can do to nail down an offer and have a have less chance of releasing to crickets. At what a couple more quick pieces of advice on that sell it before you make it like Okay, I think I know who this is who it's for this is the outcome. Describe it. Just like when I launch a pilot, I have a Google Doc that just says basically, here's who it's for, here's what you're gonna get, here's how much it is, here's what we're going to accomplish. Are you in or out? And I tried to get that handful of people and just like see, okay, did people say yes to it or not? And if so, it's like, Great, now I can dig into preparing the materials and creating materials. And I'm not wasting time because now I know people wanted it. So that's another piece of advice. And then the third thing is just make sure, sometimes you got a great course it's the right offer and you just didn't do a proper promotion or campaign you didn't get the right messaging in front of enough of the right people. And that's a whole other topic. But sometimes that's what's wrong is you just haven't said the right things to enough of the right people for them to say yes, this is what I've been looking for.

Right? That's great, that makes my brain think a little bit more to know are in an online course we have to satisfy like all the different learning types. Like there's some people that are audio visual, like how do you satisfy helping everybody without having to do like 10 Different kinds of courses? Right? Yeah,

it can be tricky. I mean, depending on the materials usually. I mean, if you're in the in the in the pilot course you're probably going to be teaching live and so you know, making sure that you have I mean, it's always is a good idea whether you're teaching live or recording to have good visuals, good examples, good stories. It's good to have tools where people can kind of like sit down and organize their own thinking by filling in the blank or answering questions or following a process, you know, that's an important piece to have. And then having focusing on having video, because video can also easily if it's in a good platform that people can access, it can also be easily listened to, there are courses that I buy in a video, but I'm just listening to it on my bike as I'm, you know, going because I don't necessarily need to see the visuals, or I can refer to the slides afterwards. So that's one of the most important things I think is in most cases, just focus on having video. And then you can always have the transcripts and audio easily enough just kind of comments kind of like with podcasting. We're recording this as a video right now, it's easy enough for you to make a transcript and and strip the audio out as well for a podcast feed. So that's how I recommend people go about it.

Awesome. I love it. I'm 2023 As we're going into the new year here. What's different about the online course spaces are something that we is there anything we need to be aware of as we're thinking about creating content? Yeah, so

we need to let go of the idea of I'm going to make this digital course. And it's just going to be this nice passive thing that I can just sell people through a funnel, like, that's the whole idea that's been sold over and over and over as a sexy thing. And it's not serving people, well, it's not getting people the results they want. And people they're looking for more of an experience. So I recommend you go higher, and you give a good experience in terms of having that support. So it's not only the information that they're accessing, that helps them get the outcome, but you know, they get some access to you, whether that's through Q and A's, whether that's through there's a Slack group, whether that's they get to send things in and you and your team, look them over and give him some feedback. But you do it in a way that it can be batched and efficient for you. So it's not like, you know, every additional student is a ton more time right? For you. So really think carefully about that experience that you are providing, how do they get access to you in the team? How do they get access to each other, like, I think it's really important to build in, you know, this took a number of forms, either matching people up into accountability partners, or giving them or just getting them interacting on the calls and getting to know each other. So that maybe off line, they're getting together to discuss the materials or, you know, I like having a Slack group people, some people use Facebook groups, there's other new platforms too, that are coming out. So it's providing that experience and that access and that camaraderie, that is really going to get people to the results that they're looking for, as opposed to like, Hey, I got you to buy my $1,000 $2,000 digital course, good luck with that. Or, you know, there's this minimal amount of support. So heading into 2023, that's, that's an essay, it's like, you need to be going premium with those experiences, and ensuring that you're getting people the results that that they're looking for. And then that and just thinking about, hey, it's about what I said earlier about organizing and systematizing your thinking and your thought leadership. So, you know, sitting down, you might very intuitively do what you do and working with somebody one on one, but can you sit down and go like, yeah, here are the milestones like guide them through here the different tools that somebody you know, that I have people use and and really understanding like this is the this codifying here, my signature methodology for going from point A to point B, and then it's easy for you to package that in different ways for different offers or slice and dice it into different content or so I think it's really important for anybody who wants to scale. There are a lot of coaches and consultants now like the last few years, so many people have like left employment and become a coach or consultant. So how are you going to stand out? Well, one of the ways is you're gonna have your signature methodology, it might look somewhat like what other people you know, have like marketing principles or marketing principles, or you know, stress relief principles or stress relief principles, but what is your flavor of of presenting those things and guiding people through those things and so and owning that and branding that and making that a good central part of your brand like if that Donald Miller's store story brand I love Dan Sullivan Strategic Coach, or I wish I could remember an example right now I'm blanking out that's a woman and not just a white dude. Got a Miller's book right here. People that we know it's like they they're known for like their ology, right? Like yeah, Mel Robbins.

I was just gonna say, Mel Robbins. There you go. That's

a great example. So I know there's one of the so that's what people are really focusing on. It's like, okay, I need to own my methodology and make that a part of my brand.

Vomit. Miracle Morning. That one comes to mind to you. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah. So many great ones have That's awesome. Well done. It's been really helpful. Jason. I know like some of our audience like they have a podcast but there's that trifecta. You know, the podcast online course coaching program, like all kind of goes together. So I know That's like a lot of our podcasters once they started podcasting want to do an online course or they have one already in now, this has been really helpful for them. Is there anything that you want our experts and thought leaders to know? Before we let you go? Um,

I mean, I would just I would just, I would just say this and that is, we live in this day and age where there's, people know they can have access to the exact information, the exact type of entertainment exact time to support for them, right. There's so many streaming services out there, and YouTube's got every imaginable thing you might want to watch. And so it's the same for when they're looking for an expert or somebody to help them right. And so you are, like, if you go to Spotify, there's so many genres I got, I don't know if anybody's heard of jazz klezmer. Like that's a very like niche, fusion jazz and klezmer together. But you can go search that on Spotify, and somebody's made, you know, a playlist full of jazz, klezmer music, right. And you are that, or a group of people out there you are, like somebody's jazz klezmer. Like the way that you go about teaching, the way you show up the way you make them feel your particular flavor of guiding them, supporting them, teaching them is exactly what they need. And this is what gets me excited about helping people package up their expertise in this way. Because there are so many ways that there's so many problems in the world to solve. And so if we elevate like all of these different each of our different perspectives, and voices and expertise, like we can help a lot of people and solve a lot of problems in a way that we couldn't without the internet 30 years ago, right? And all my courses, group programs are one just like podcasts or you know, another way to do that. And so, you know, when you know anybody is feeling I don't know, do I really have something special enough to make an online course it's I guess, there are some people out there who will be thrilled when they come across your group program. Like, this is exactly what I've been waiting for. Thank God, I found Michelle, because I needed her and I didn't know it. Now I do. So here I am. You know. So that's what we're going for.

Yeah, I love it. And knowing that you can make an impact with your online course, like you want to make an impact in the world, like I know, the people we work with, it's really important to them, than I think of that hybrid version of an online course, rather than a standalone like, you know, go and watch something. But having that interactive experience, too, is so important for that impact piece as well. Absolutely. So cool. Well, thank you so much, Jason, for being here with us. Where can we find out more about you? Where can you check out your podcasts, all that kind of jazz? Yeah, so

Jason Van orden.com, you sign up for my newsletter there. And I'm always coming out with new frameworks and content to help people organize their thought leadership to get it out there in a bigger way. If you're thinking, hey, maybe I'm ready to think about starting an online course. I've got a case study and some information to really help you dive into that. Who is it for? And what are the outcomes so if you go to lean launch method, dot download, so that's a web address, lean launch method dot download, you'll be able to access a case study to help you get started on figuring out what is your online course I do one now won't wants to crickets when that people actually want

to buy that one. Pardon me? raving fans. So thanks so much, Jason. amplify your family.

Make sure you go check out Jason's website, his newsletter, check out his website, check out his podcast, go to that download. I'll put it in the show notes for you too. And we'll see you again next week.