Navigating Life as an Adult Child of an Alcoholic with Jody Lamb

Well, good morning everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

Today we have with us a very, very special guest because it's somebody that I've been following her work and her podcast or her, her blog and everything for years and years and years.

But today we have with us Jody Lamb.

She's a personal growth author dedicated to helping adult children of alcoholics heal from their past and create their dream lives.

Her resilience and dedication stem from her own experiences of growing up with an alcoholic mother.

Since 2009, Jody has been sharing the insights with a global community of adult children of alcoholics.

Her middle grade novel Easter and Peter's Operation Cool received forward many reviews.

I can't read.

I don't have my glasses on.

In a 2012 book of the Year award for its realistic portrayal of parental alcoholism, on her website, Jody Lamb.com she offers simple strategies to overcome the challenges of being an adult child of an alcoholic and live a peaceful, fulfilling life.

I'm just excited to have her here because literally, she was one of the very first people to come online and start talking about this life that so many of us have lived and so many of us have just stayed silent about.

So welcome, Jody.

Thank you so much, Tammy.

Yeah.

So tell us a little bit.

I know you were, your mother was obviously an alcoholic, but tell us a little bit about your journey and how you felt the need to start advocating and really advocating for your past.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, like you, you know, I spent most of my adult life until I was 26, very focused on my quest, my lifelong quest, to convince my mother to finally stop drinking.

And her drinking had affected me tremendously growing up.

And as her disease progressed into my teenage years and early adult years, I was just so determined, you know, as the eldest daughter of two, to be the one to, to, to make her finally accept help and we could all live happily ever after.

That's what I thought.

If she, she stopped drinking, the chaos would stop and my father, my sister and I could, could live our own life because as is often the case, we really didn't have our own lives.

We had sort of one big chaotic life that revolved around my mother's drinking.

And, you know, after doing everything I could think to do to help her at 26, I finally hit my own rock bottom.

I was exhausted, I was deeply depressed.

I dreaded every day.

And I thought, I'm not sure I will survive this the way that it feels.

I, I thought somehow some way it was going to take my life.

And so it was this desperation point.

I finally went to an Al Anon meeting, and I went there still desperate for the solution to the drinking.

And it was there when I heard those fellow participants sharing their story that I thought, that's.

That's my story.

That's how I felt.

And it was in that I had this true aha.

That I was ill.

I was very ill.

And that it was my time to stop obsessing over my mother's drinking and focus on taking good care of me.

And that was 15 years ago.

That was the start of my.

My journey.

And I'm so thrilled to report that after a lot of focus on me and therapy, self care, education, that I truly love the life that I have today and back at 26 years old at that Al Anon meeting, while walking down the steps into that meeting, I couldn't have imagined it.

And so I feel very compelled to share my story, to help others learn from what I've learned and to kind of continue that conversation just as you're doing.

And it's been very inspiring to hear from.

From so many others who share our story.

Oh, yeah, I can't even imagine.

I mean, I can imagine because that's why I do what I do.

It's funny that you said 26 was your aha moment, because that was my aha moment.

I had been through all of.

Yeah, it was very interesting.

I was actually getting ready to have my first child.

And I don't know if you have children, but if you.

Have you ever read the book love you forever?

No, but I've heard of it.

Okay, so for those of you, you that have listened to other episodes, you've probably heard me mention this, but it's a book about.

It's a children's book, but it's about a mother's unconditional love for her son.

So she's pregnant and she's rocking back and forth in the rocking chair and she's singing, I love you forever.

I like you for always, Forever and ever My baby you'll be.

And it goes through all these stages where he's.

Terrible twos, you know, being a bratty teenager doing all this stuff, getting grown, moving out.

At the end of the book, the tables are turned and she's now weak and frail and old.

And he's rocking her, singing the same song, but singing, my mommy you'll be.

And I was pregnant with my first child reading that book.

And it should have been like this really serendipitous, like, happy moment.

And I totally broke down because I was like, I don't even have a memory of hugging my mother.

Like, I don't even know what unconditional love feels like.

And that was my aha moment.

And I thought, obviously, the answer can't be just doing the exact opposite of what I saw.

That can't be just the answer.

So that's when that was my aha moment at exactly 26 years old.

So, I mean, God bless it that we got it that early, because some people are in their 50s and 60s going, life's just not quite right.

And I can't put my finger on it.

Well, I'm so grateful that that book inspired you.

The books are very powerful.

Absolutely.

So.

So tell us.

So the work you do is.

I mean, you write, you have a blog, you do all kinds of stuff.

But what.

Okay, so in Al Anon.

I know I went to Al Anon for many, many years.

Did you.

Did you kind of move out of Al Anon to go to anything else, or was that your answer?

Did you, like, move to adult children of alcoholics after Al Anon?

Yeah, when I.

So at that point, when I started my journey, it began with Al Anon, and hearing those stories at the meetings kind of helped set my path.

So I was.

I was desperate at that point for kind of a playbook.

And you probably felt that way at 26, when you were about to have a child.

You know, what do I do?

I recognize now that I've been so deeply affected.

What do I do?

Well, I know no playbook existed, so what I thought is I could get more educated.

And so I started reading more about the science of addiction and truly understanding what had happened to my family.

What my mother, you know, was.

Was deeply addicted to alcohol.

And up until that point, I did not understand the true science of addiction.

I thought there was a lot more decision making that she was making.

And so that that emphasis on education really opened my eyes to realize that I was.

I had a completely normal reaction to everything that had happened.

And it was also very bittersweet to discover just how common it is.

Up until that point, I felt very alone, and it was such a secret, and no one at school or in my world talked about it.

So I felt very alone.

And so it was a very bittersweet feeling to think there are so many other people who have experienced this, so I'm not alone.

But also there are so many people who've experienced this.

And that was very hard to recognize because I knew how painful that.

That it was.

So I kept going to the Al Anon meetings.

I did go to adult children of dysfunction a bit, too.

I spent a lot of time for about three or four years in both groups.

And, you know, as you probably have shared with others, sometimes you have to go to a few different meetings to find one that fits your style.

They all have a different vibe or a different focus.

And so that was very helpful.

And then around that time, I started therapy and found a few who, you know, had acoa or adult children of alcoholics syndrome and dysfunctional family background.

But, you know, they.

They didn't really connect with me.

I found that they didn't have the true understanding of what I'd gone through.

So it took me a few different therapists.

I view it kind of like dating, where you have to spend time with different therapists to really find one who fits you at that moment.

And so, you know, after a few years, I found a therapist who really clicked well with me, who had grown up with an alcoholic father and had.

Was an alcoholic in recovery himself.

So he got me immediately and kind of set me on the path, asking me questions very directly that helped open my eyes to what I needed to do.

And around that time, with the therapy and education, I started truly understanding what self care was because I didn't know what it meant to take good care of myself because I'd never done it before.

And I started doing things that as a child, I loved to do and kind of being free for the first time.

And that's when things really started to change for me and led me to where I am today.

Awesome.

So did you.

And I don't know if I get go anywhere.

We didn't talk about this before.

Usually I say, is there anywhere you don't want me to go or talk about or.

And if I do just kind of nod or say, stop, you know, good enough.

But is you.

Let's let me ask this first.

Do you still have a good relationship with your parents?

Well, it's so fascinating, Tammy.

I at one time thought that I could never have a good relationship with my mother, but I would say today it's good.

We got into a very healthy spot for one reason alone, and that is boundaries.

Because I had to set very firm boundaries with her, I'd stick to them.

And that was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life.

And for that reason, we've been able to kind of grow this relationship.

So we talk about once a week.

We spend time as a family at holidays, and occasionally, you know, get together.

She still is Active.

And she still suffers from her substance use disorder, but she's in a much better spot than I really ever could have imagined.

My father passed away about 10 years ago, and I didn't.

At that time, when he passed away, I.

I didn't think that she would survive it.

I feared that she would.

The grief coupled with everything else she already had going on.

But amazingly, when she was forced to stand on her own two feet and take care of herself and respect my boundaries, interestingly, she started to get better herself.

That's.

That's great.

And I love.

I love stories where people can actually reconcile and then they can re.

Establish and mend that relationship.

Because.

Because I don't know.

Again, I don't know what your.

I know there was chaos.

I know there was dysfunction.

I know there was confusion.

I don't know if there was fear and a physical abuse.

I don't know any of those details.

But it's good to know that so many people can.

You can reestablish that.

And going to Al Anon sometimes, that was.

That was a big turning point for me.

I remember my father told me when I was 13, because he was an alcoholic as well, and he knew.

He said to me, when I was 13 years old, Tammy, your mother and I are doing irreparable damage to you and your brother and sister.

Oh, wow.

I don't know how to help you.

I was like, okay, so, like, so what do I do with that?

And I went to an alatine meeting and they were talking about empathy.

That was the subject of the night.

And the very night before my mom had.

It was kind of a.

Just a bad situation.

My mom had been drinking.

Obviously they were getting ready to get divorced.

And back in the 70s, there wasn't a, you know, there wasn't custody battles.

Dad got, mom got.

Basically, unless you could prove her unfit, mom got custody.

That's kind of how it was a while ago.

So she was kind of nervous about that.

So she was doing everything she could to get my father to be abusive to her.

So that we would have to say, dad hits mom.

And my father was always like the most mellow, like, chilled out, kind, just relaxed.

And I'll never forget it.

And that very next morning, I went to this Al Anon meeting or day after school after I'd watched my mother burn cigarettes on my father trying to get him to hit her.

And my dad's like, not going to do it.

But at that stage in my life, I regret that it was that meeting because I didn't Understand empathy.

I didn't understand putting yourself in someone's shoes.

I didn't understand, like you said, that it was a disease and that it wasn't her just being this nasty, mean person.

It was the alcohol doing it to her.

So I walked away from Alotine for 15 years, 11 years, something like that.

And it took me getting back, and I wish I hadn't gone to that one meeting because now I don't have hard feelings.

My.

My parents have both passed, but there is no hard feelings there.

There's only compassion and there's empathy for anybody that is going through that situation.

So, you know, it takes work when relationships are broken like that.

It takes a lot of work.

But I love that you're hopeful and you can share that, that it's.

It's mendable.

Those relationships are absolutely mendable.

Yes.

And, you know, and when you're actively.

When you're living with an active alcoholic, it's very difficult to have empathy because you're, You're.

You're just in such a unhealthy, likely destructive environment that you can't think clearly.

You're not.

Your basic needs are not being met.

It's very hard to.

To separate this horrible person as they are when they're drinking from the human being underneath all of that.

And as a teenager, I got very resentful because I didn't understand what was going on.

I.

I thought that every day my mother was making a decision, and, you know, I was crying, I was begging, I was writing letters, I was calling her siblings and trying, doing everything I could possibly think to do as a young person.

And I just simply didn't understand that I could not control it.

And it wasn't my job.

My job was to be a kid, to be a young person and take good care of me.

But I didn't have any of this education or this knowledge.

And like your father.

My father was.

My father was not an alcoholic, but he was a very deeply embedded codependent, and he felt very strongly that my mother just needed everyone to take care of things for her.

Now, as we know, we were completely enabling her.

Right.

And looking back, I thought I was doing the right thing, you know, by, you know, keeping everything a secret, cleaning up the messes, figuratively and literally, you know, keeping everything together, not telling anyone, taking care of myself, taking care of my younger sister.

You know, I became absolutely the mother in the whole household.

So I was the mother figure, the reliable, dependent one for my sister.

And my mother had no reason to change because I had Taken over all of her responsibilities.

And.

And.

And I deeply regret that because I.

I took that purpose from her unknowingly.

I thought I was doing the right thing, being the good older daughter.

And now I know through education that I was really preventing her from realizing the help that she needed to get.

Unfortunately, she did not ever really accept the help, but I never gave her the chance during those years to do so.

Right.

And, you know, I also don't like the.

I don't like when people say, well, we got to let them hit rock bottom.

You know, you can still be compassionate and you can still try to do those things, but, yeah, it's.

It's heart wrenching watching someone that you love hit rock bottom, whether it's a spouse or a child or, you know, an aunt and whoever it is, to let that.

You want to help them.

You want to.

And I know we talk.

You've probably done blog posts on is it enabling or is it helping?

You know, like, there's a big difference between helping someone and being kind and enabling them to carry on their addiction.

I mean, it's definitely a fine line, but it's good.

Again, that's why you're out here to tell people.

And do you think that she knew?

Like, did you have any conversations when she was actively drinking about the drinking?

Like, was it ever discussed?

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Between the two of us.

It started when I was about 12, you know, me having the frank conversations with her about how it made me feel, feel.

And, you know, she came from an alcoholic household when she was 11 years old.

A lot.

A lot of dysfunction, a lot of unresolved trauma.

I didn't know that at the time.

I had no idea as a child.

So she never opened up about any of that.

She just always dismissed the drinking as something I didn't need to worry about, that it was just something she had to do.

And.

And the conversations really went nowhere.

We repeated the same conversation over and over again for several years.

You know, even, you know, as I became a young adult, I was.

I was so certain that I could one day say the right thing or she would reach a point where she was just tired of it, of tired of that life and miraculously decide to get help or just cold turkey, stop drinking.

I had that, you know, hope, too.

And my father had this rosy outlook on life.

That was his personality, which was a wonderful trait to have, except when it came to my mother, because he would always say, things just have a way of working out.

And he just believed that we just got through that period, she was going through a rough patch.

We would turn out okay on the other side.

Well, the rough patches went on for years, and he didn't have the education or the knowledge to know what to do, so he just kind of did the best that he could.

And unfortunately, he passed away just as I was really getting wisdom on this topic.

And.

And I often wonder if he had passed away, you know, how we could.

How I could have helped him learn and, you know, deal with it.

But the good news is my sister and I, you know, we have the.

The wisdom.

We're stopping the cycle in our family.

And.

And we've, you know, have.

We're focused on ourselves.

Perfect.

I mean, that's all you can do.

And, you know, I say I go back to all these cliches, you know, I don't know how many times I heard my mother say, I don't know why you guys keep bothering me about this.

I'm only hurting myself.

And if she'll.

And she was a child psychiatrist.

Wow.

So I feel like there had to be some knowledge of what was going on.

I mean, she was a doctor.

Like, she had to know.

But, you know, again, her.

She was troubled her whole life.

It was a coping mechanism.

That's how it started.

She was anorexic at 13.

Her father sent her to boarding school for four years.

Never even saw her.

Just.

And he was a child.

He was a psychiatrist, so it was like just boom, boom, boom.

So you talk about generational, but, yes, it's good that, you know, somebody stand up.

That's what I tell my kids, and I even tell my kids, and I'm very honest with them, is that even if I had never picked up a drink, you are acquiring all the traits of having lived with an alcoholic.

Because I was at the beginning of my learning stage.

You know, if I knew now what I knew 20 years ago when my children were born.

Totally different ballgame.

But you can't beat yourself up about that.

All you can do is move forward.

Absolutely.

Yes.

And as.

As we chatted about earlier, you know, this is really a lifelong journey.

And, you know, when I started it, I thought, well, you know, at some point here, I will reach.

I will reach full knowledge of this topic.

I will.

I will be happy.

I will have everything I need to have.

And I know now that it's a journey of continual learning.

So, you know, five years ago, I thought I really had great wisdom.

And now, five years later, there's so much more that I recognize that I have opportunity to learn and grow.

And it's very exciting because I am at a point that I never thought that I could be at.

Yeah, I thought that I was.

I was dealt very bad cards in life that I would always be burdened with being in the middle of the chaos, taking care of my parents on every level, financially, emotionally.

Just so much responsibility that I thought I had to bear for the rest of my life.

It was overwhelming.

You can imagine why I was.

I felt so depressed at 26.

And now being through this whole process of healing, it.

It's so exciting.

I wish I could go back in time and kind of whisper in teenager me's ear and say, this is what life is going to be like in the future.

You believe that you'll get there and you will.

And.

And there are just millions of people who have lived this.

And you listen to the stories.

They're all variations of the same story.

Absolutely.

And you think, how did they.

How did they get through that and.

And come out, you know, so fulfilled and, you know, having a life they love and it's because they put in the time to heal.

Yes.

So much as possible.

Now, what do you.

What would you attribute your best?

Like, I know you went to therapy.

Is that what you would say did the most healing for you was the therapy?

No, actually it was the Al Anon meetings.

I mean, therapy had to happen.

It was absolutely critical step, but it was.

It was the realization that I had a completely normal reaction because all the while the anxiety that I felt, issues that I had picked up along the way with my relationships, how I worked, everything was attributed to my experiences with my mother.

And being in those meetings really kind of opened my eyes that this is.

Other people are feeling this way too.

You're normal.

And now you just have to figure out how to sort of unprogram your thinking.

And I did a lot of that.

It's still there.

It still comes back, of course.

But that's why the learning is always good.

And, you know, staying connected with people and having the conversations, always a reminder of the healthy thinking.

And when you start to slip back into the unhealthy thinking, it's the.

It's the voices and the stories around you that.

That remind and get you right back on the right path.

Right.

And I love that you made the comment that you said you had to go back and like, you wanted to go back and talk to that teenage teenager and whisper in their ear and say, this is what it can be like.

This is what it's going to look like.

But you also made a reference to comment earlier that you had clearly done some inner child work like you were going back and, and being that young child again.

And I think that is so vitally important for people listening.

That is you learn to be a kid again, you know, re parent yourself like that little child that didn't get that love.

I mean I still do it to this day when I'm like sad about something.

I literally physically hug myself like, you got this girl, you're okay, you're safe.

You know, I mean it is all those that, it's the child that, that runs your life.

That inner child is like your subconscious mind and that is what is running your, it's not necessarily what's running your life, but it's what makes those split decisions.

It's what makes you feel good or bad about yourself.

It's what makes all of that stuff.

So if you can go, the more you can go back and get in touch with that little Jody, the better, the better you're going to be.

You are absolutely correct in that.

And, and there the one, the most impactful therapist I had, he was the one I mentioned earlier about, who was an alcoholic in recovery himself.

He had an alcoholic father.

He challenged me to do a lot of that inner child work and I sort of laughed at him.

It all seemed very corny to me and I thought, I don't, I don't need that.

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm a strong, independent woman.

I don't need to go back that far.

And he said, just do me a favor and take a photo of yourself, maybe six or seven years old and post it somewhere in your house like on your refrigerator or your bathroom mirror or whatever.

And I did it.

And it, it absolutely shifted my view because I suddenly saw this innocent little kid, not as, as me as a seven year old, but this innocent kid.

And, and I felt sad for her.

I felt angry.

Like this person, this young person was robbed and had to grow up way too fast.

And in my next session after that, or I had that photo of myself taped up, he said, you know, how do you feel?

And I said great.

And it was the very first time that I had ever felt that emotion.

Anger about everything.

It had been sadness, sadness that my mother had had this issue, sadness that I experienced it, sadness that I failed to solve it like I wanted to my whole life.

And I finally felt anger.

And that emotion is what fueled me to start doing a lot more activities that I love to do.

It really helped define my self care path and I started doing things I love to do, which opened up the door for new friend groups with people who had similar interests.

And it really gave me a more fulfilled, joyful life.

And it was all from that inner child work that started with the photo of myself on my bathroom mirror.

You got it.

I've done about, I would say, probably on and off, like six years.

I mean, inner child work has just become a part of who I am, really.

You know, I talk to that inner child.

I.

I acknowledge when something's going on, and I think, oh, that doesn't sound like me.

Where'd that come from?

I go right back there.

Let's go right back there.

Let's write her a lever letter.

I do a lot of journaling, and when I write her letters, I always use the opposite hand and have her write one back.

I don't know if you've ever tried anything like that.

And the reasoning for that, they.

The things that I've heard from psychologists and stuff is that when you use your opposite hand, you're pulling from the other side of your brain.

You're kind of opening up more of the intuition side.

All of this stuff, I think something different now.

This is just me thinking, so who knows?

You can take this with a grain of salt, but when you're writing with your opposite hand, you're focusing on the letters, not what you're actually saying.

You're focusing on the.

The purposely, like you know what you want to say.

But I feel like when I do that, it takes the ego out of it.

For me, it takes me out of it.

And I'm just writing from her and focusing on the T and the H.

And then I'll look down and like afterwards, and I'll read it like two days later and be like, oh, wow, that's kind of cool.

Like, I never, like, literally, it's almost like.

I don't want to say dissociating, but almost like I am.

I'm literally.

Yeah, I love that method.

I'm going to try that for sure.

That's a great idea.

It made a really big difference to me.

It really did.

So great.

This has been so much fun.

I don't want to keep you all day.

I know you are super busy, but I could talk to you all day.

I mean, obviously we, you know, likewise.

Yeah, I was gonna say it's.

It's like being in a meeting now.

I'm just kidding.

But, yeah, those.

There is so much power and community, and I tell people that all the time.

And you have questions like that's why I do this podcast.

If, if one person out of 10,000 goes, huh, maybe I'll try that.

Or that sounds cool.

Or let me.

I never thought about that.

I went back and I was one of kind of like you.

I like to learn.

I'm a chronic learner.

So I had somebody say to me, hey, you ought to do nlp.

Like, that might help you with your childhood stuff.

So what do I do?

I immediately go out and get certified to do nlp.

Like, I'm, like, I.

I'm not gonna let anybody try anything on me until I know what it's all about.

But there's always learning.

Like you said, there's always something.

And oh, we, there's so much out there, guys.

We are in a perfect world where there's so many resources for everybody.

It shouldn't.

All you need is one.

One idea to spark.

Wow.

There's more.

I can learn more or I can.

I can be a little bit happier.

And when you start, even if you don't exactly go ahead.

Yeah.

If you don't have the time even, you know, I started with one hour every week with one Al Anon meeting.

And then I suddenly found the time miraculously.

I had, you know, very demanding job as obviously very responsible at home for my sister.

Lots of other things going on, but I started finding the time to put into it and it all just became clear what I needed to do.

And I was forever grateful that I put those little bits of time into it because it's so more than worth it.

Oh, yeah.

And now that we have the Internet like you said, you could jump on right now and find 20 online Al Anon meetings.

Yes.

Yes.

How fortunate we are in that way.

Yes.

You know, somehow I'll wake up sometimes in the middle of the night, it'll be 4 o'clock in the morning.

I'm like, oh, there's got to be one going on at.

In Germany, because it's 10 in the morning there.

You just jump on like there's.

It's so easy.

But if people want to work with you or talk to you or get more of your information, what is the absolute best place and quickest place for them to access you?

The best place is my website, jodlam.com.

i there share tips and resources, a lot about my personal journey, what I learned along the way.

I'm also on, you know, pretty much all the social platforms, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook.

And right now I'm working on a memoir.

So I'm really excited to Release that in 2025.

So if you're interested in learning more details about my story and what I learned, there's a sign up to my email list right on the homepage of my website, Jody Lamb.com and you sign up.

You'll get tips and resources and be alerted when that book is available.

Excited to share more details about my story.

People ask me a lot of questions about it and I think it's very familiar to people.

So really excited about next year for that.

Oh, that'll be great.

And we'll make sure.

Just make sure you email me and I'll change the links in there so they can get a link to that book.

But she is being very modest, guys.

If you're out there listening, she has been a wealth of information for me for absolutely years.

If I have any question about anything, I literally just go to Pinterest and Google it in or go to Pinterest and just type in the search like huh, codependency, Bam.

And who comes up?

Jody Lamb.

And I read the article and I'm like, okay, that makes sense.

Cool, thanks.

You know, it's like literally I can get my daily dose just from you on social media, but you have a lot of good information.

So definitely thank you very much.

Yes, you're welcome.

Definitely check out her website for sure.

Now, if you had to leave the listeners and I know you've given a lot of golden nuggets and tips, but if you had to leave them with one, something tangible or some words of wisdom or just something to take with them today, what would it be?

When I find myself faced with a decision every day, whether it's with a boundary, with my mother, with work, with people in my life, I ask myself a simple question and that is, is this good for you?

And at first it felt very selfish to think like this because you know, my whole life I never put myself first.

But it is so helpful in making decisions because most often it's not good for me.

And it really helps guide in making the right decision in setting firm boundaries.

And I've often found that what feels wrong in the moment is generally absolutely the right thing to do.

And it's uncomfortable.

But it's worth following your intuition and making that decision because it can be what makes or breaks your life and your life depends on it.

So asking yourself that question can really be a guide.

Wow, that's a good one.

I haven't gotten that one.

107 episodes.

I haven't gotten that one.

But that is a perfect test is just ask yourself.

It's very simple.

It's cut and dry.

Is this good for you?

If it's not, don't do it.

Don't entertain it.

Don't let it in.

Save your energy around your space like you deserve 100% of that energy that is yours that you you love.

Yeah, I love that.

Well, thank you so much for coming on, Jodi.

Oh, thank you, Tammy.

I really enjoyed our conversation.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And maybe we'll have you back when your book launches, when your memoir launches.

That would be fun.

That'd be great.

That would be super fun.

And for everybody out there listening, you heard it.

It doesn't matter, guys.

What you went through.

There is hope.

There is healing.

There is a happier you at the other side.

You just got to learn where to look for it.

Have a blessed day.

Bye, guys.