Heartfelt Boundaries: For Our Children with Michaela Gaffen Stone

Welcome to a call for love. I am so grateful you're here I am really value your time and energy to listen to this podcast where we share inspiration. You know, my mission is to guide you towards living with greater attention and awareness through speaking and coaching the course Emotional Freedom getting unstuck, and of course, just living from a deep source of personal power, passion and purpose. And so today, here I am sharing this time, with Michaela Gaffen Stone. And so we just had a fantastic interview, I was on her podcast, and she will explain all about herself. But we are sharing a commonality here today with you about a book that we are mutually became authors in. And so Michaela, can you share with everybody a little bit about yourself? Maybe how we met, and we have such an important message to share with everyone.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. And I'm delighted to have this opportunity to speak on your podcast. I'm a lifelong traveler, lifelong learner. And one of the things I did along the way was had kids and learned that, you know, the parenting books out there weren't written for my children, they were written for the child that doesn't really exist. So I started right then figuring out how to parent differently, and learning more and more about behavior. I've been looking at behavior since I was a toddler myself, but I formalized that training later, then became a board certified behavior analyst. And I find it's, it's the way people we communicate, if you can't articulate what's going on, you'll behave it. And so that sort of led me into the path of working with parents, grandparents, caregivers, teachers, you know, anybody that has to do with children. That's basically how you and I met was with this book, I forgotten children. And we both contributed to it. And, you know, my chapters, the first one, because it's a sort of introduction, I guess, to some parenting tips, some ideas. And yours, Linder is chapter 13. There's so much goodness in between here and there. But it's a great book.

Yeah, I am really honored to be amongst such really wonderful people who are authors in this book with a lot of information and knowledge to share. You know, I, regardless of what our occupation is, you know, children touch our heart, they are our future. And they're our present, as you said in your chapter. It's an honor to be able to guide them, I feel. And so let's talk about your chapter called behavioral patterns. And there were a couple of times I chuckled, I completely, really resonated with so much of what you said. And I feel like we're very aligned. If someone was to read your chapter, right from the start, what is the biggest piece of information you'd want to share with them?

Michaela Gaffen Stone: I think, listen to your child, is is hugely important, because they're often telling you things that you need to know. And other people are giving you their lens, which you don't necessarily need to know. So if in doubt, if there's a situation coming up, look at your child, the answers are they're not from people around you. So that would be the biggest thing. And

you're not a psychiatrist.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: No, I'm an applied behavior analyst. So means I've done the science of behavior analysis, and I can look at what people are doing, and figure out from the circumstances and what the results are, what they're actually looking to achieve. And it's a fascinating thing, because you're working with kids with autism forbid, they will behave the situation. So if you have a child with big behaviors, they're unhappy, they're acting out causing all kinds of problems, then there is a big issue for that child. And it takes some sleuthing to find out what it is. And it takes being present and watching them and really sort of looking at well, what are you trying to get if you're trying to get away from something? What are you also trying to get to, and how can we do that differently? So it's fun for somebody who likes to dive deep and keep sleuthing, which I do.

Well, I really found it interesting because, you know, if we want to support our children and their behaviors, It really begins with us like noticing our reactions and our responses and our behaviors. And so as I was reading this, you know, it's, of course, it's about our children, but it's really about ourselves to

Michaela Gaffen Stone: very much. So then it's about our communication patterns. Because children, their life experiences, you know, two inches, whereas is much bigger. So their frame of reference is a lot smaller than as, when you say things they don't have a lot of to work with. So if you're clear in what you're saying, then you'll get a better outcome with the child. But if you say something that's never been defined, like, be nice, be polite. Well, if I asked you to write that down as a definition that I asked everybody listening, write that down as a definition, we would all have differences in there. And yet, nobody ever tells a child what that means. You expect them to know, somehow. So they look around, and they try and figure it out. And sometimes they don't get it right. And then they get into trouble. So, you know, being clear in your communication is so important, and saying what you actually want to see as long as what you don't want. So you know, the child that's banging the pup lips together, if you just tell them to stop, you're not giving them something else to do. If you tell them to be quiet. Well, what else can they do you know this, they're looking for certain sensations, input, learning. And if you tell them, they can't do that, well, ideally have something else that they can do that would meet that need. Otherwise, you're going to end up with escalating behaviors that look like the child's acting out and the you know, being naughty, but actually, they're just trying to get their needs met.

You know, this brings to mind my youngest son, he was identified as defiant. And we realize it was Miss identification. Because it wasn't he was not defiant. He is not a defiant person. He we just couldn't communicate properly to each other. He couldn't understand me, and I couldn't understand him. And it wasn't until we really dove in to, you know, experimenting with language. I'll just give you an example. For years. at dinnertime, I would say turn off your Gameboy, it's dinner, five minute warning, but he would really get upset. And one day he says to me, mummy, if I turned it off, I'll lose my game. I said, Oh, can you pause? He paused. Never a problem again. But if I took it at face value, it would look as defiant. But it wasn't and the poor little thing we suffered for so long over that, right.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: And examples come up all the time for people where the child's trying to tell you something, but they don't have the language. And they don't necessarily even have the concept fully yet. But they're trying to tell it to you anyway. And you have to be very, very present to catch it. And you know, we can't do that all the time. But the more you can do it, the more you can be present. And the more you can look at your child and listen to them, the more wins you'll have, and the more they'll be able to communicate with you because you start to get closer to the same page. And then, you know, checking for understanding is a huge part of the deal. Like, okay, I just told you this thing. Can you tell me what you heard? Or can you tell me how that how you understood that? What do you what do you know, by this, you know, depending on the age of the child, but ask them basically to tell it back to you without parroting. And then you'll get what they understood. And sometimes it's really interesting, when they've gone off on a different direction, and they didn't get what you said at all. It's like, oh, that could have gone badly. Okay, you know, let's revisit this and play with the language some more. Just that checking for understanding can make such a difference. I

think we could use this in our adult relationships. I

Michaela Gaffen Stone: think you're right. Yes, very much. So, you know, I was talking to a teacher one time and she said, this child needs help. But whenever I say Does anybody have questions? They never respond. And I said, Okay, you know, there's a simple change. What questions do you have? And then hands start to go up and you ask that child, what questions do you have, and now they're going to give them to you, because the expectation was set that the person whereas if you say, just an open sort of who has questions, nobody's going to put their hand up for that.

It's so subtle differences that really move mountains. Yeah.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Yeah, there's nothing much to change but the expectation shifts so dramatically, that now you get a response from the child that you wouldn't have got. If you yelled at them for you know, work rescue. How many questions do you have or however else you feel Is it but if you say, what questions do you have? The assumption is there so you're pre framing you're setting them up for, oh, a response is required? Well, I do have a question and that one, and that one, you know, and then the floodgates start, but you get to learn where they're at and what they're looking for from you.

So, exactly, I feel that you're very perceptive in this way. And in your chapter, you talk about the importance of boundaries. So communication, and then boundary setting. And I want to say that in my course, emotional freedom, one of my free gifts is the five steps to setting healthy boundaries for adults. So imagine that adults are struggling in this area, no wonder our children, our grandchildren, our neighbors, children, all the children are also struggling in this area. So I really would love you to guide a call for love listeners, on your steps to set healthy and important and stable boundaries.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Wonderful, I thank you, I love the opportunity. So first of all, I just want to say Gen X, were not raised with boundaries. So they don't know what boundaries look like, it's very difficult to parent from there. Now you've got some that are, you know, grandparents, and they, you know, they have not taught boundaries for two generations, at least. So what is a boundary? Well, first of all, what it isn't, is, you know, the idea in your head that this is acceptable, and this isn't, and that's all it is, it's in your head, you've never actually articulated a boundary is what's important to you. So you need to spend some time to figure out where those lines are, what really is a hard boundary for you. And then you articulate that to the people that need to know it, you tell them, this is a boundary. And you also tell them what the consequences are of overrunning that boundary. So an example would be, I'm very particular about timekeeping as I don't like to be late. And I don't like it if somebody else is late, or worse, if they don't turn up for a session. And they don't tell me. So have a boundary around that, that you have a 10 minute grace period. And if you haven't told me in some way of communication, if you haven't messaged, emailed, whatever, that you're not coming at 10 minutes, the call stops. And it's counted as the call occurred, because I was there. And you didn't tell me that you weren't coming. The 10 minute time elapses, the course done. So everybody knows that that's the way it's going to work. And then the key with the keeping a boundary is, well, you have to keep the boundary. So saying, well, just this once, or oh, well, it doesn't really matter. Okay, that's not a boundary anymore. You just moved the bar. And what that becomes is the strongest way to reinforce the behavior. Nothing reinforces more than a moving target. So think of gamblers in Vegas, right? They sit at hours at a slot machine, why? It's not very entertaining, it's not doing a lot, but they know there's a reward coming. They don't know how big it is, and they don't know when and that you can keep somebody eight hours sitting in this chair. So a child who gets the response that they want at different times, because that boundary keeps moving. You strengthening the behavior, they'll try harder and harder. Same for adults, obviously, there are boundaries, necessary to be clear, stated, and natural consequences and the consequences need to make sense. It's not a you know, you didn't eat dinner. So I'm taking away your Gameboy. It's, you know, those two things don't go together. If you didn't eat your dinner, you'll be hungry. That's a consequence.

A natural consequence. Before we continue, there may be some listeners who don't know what Generation X is.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: So Generation X is 1965 64 there abouts to mid 70s. I think it's the generation that basically you're a latchkey kid, you know, you were told to go out, do all the things you needed to do come back and burn the house down. And your parents were both working. And they didn't really have time for the kids because they were busy working. And it was just a shift of priorities that they got from the generation before them. So every generation passes on their difficulty, if you will to the next one. There's a result from it. natural consequences, if you will. So Gen X pretty much raised themselves. So anybody from mid 50s, on down, you know who you are, if you're a Gen X, pretty much, and then you have the, the, sort of bleed over into the millennial generation. They're actually called elder millennials, can you imagine, but the ones at the early stages, they're now having kids too. And they also don't really know how to proceed. because either they tended to be helicopter parented where they, you know, the air didn't blow on them, or they had the opposite of, you know, the Gen X experience of not a lot of how to do a lot of what we want you to do, but not a lot of how to do it.

There's a prominent saving. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What you didn't get your tribe salutely.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: I mean, Gen X are responsible for the participation trophies, for example, there was a big space of that for a while, right, nobody could lose, everybody was a winner. And it was Gen X trying to say, look, it was awful. You know, I lost all the time here when when something and you know, they're overcompensating? Absolutely. It's a natural thing to do, but it doesn't help.

Yeah, Buddha always says travelled the middle path. Yes, yes. And so for setting boundaries, what really struck me what you said is that, even for adults and children, you really have to know what it is important to you. So if you really don't take the time to listen and really decide, you know, what battle, you're going to fight, let's say, then, you become, as Barbara coloro said, I mentioned on your podcast, that jellyfish parent, you know, with the without the backbone, you're like, sometimes yes, sometimes no. And then no one knows, as you had said about the gambler. So really being consistent now. I would like you to share with the listeners, how you can really know what boundaries you need, and how can you express that to your children and even other adults? Certainly,

Michaela Gaffen Stone: excellent question. So first of all, it's what, what is really important to you? Like, is this something that when it happens, you get upset every single time? Like me with the whole timekeeping thing, that is an issue for me. So I set a boundary around it, because it's important to me. But also, it needs to be something that, you know, you can maintain that line you, you know, and if if your child or the colleague, the spouse, whoever it is, if they cross that line, the consequences that you have already figured out, occur. Now, if you aren't really going to stick to that, then is it really that important to you? If you're prepared to keep moving the line, then it's not really a boundary. So what, what else would you like it to be? That first part is so important, because we spend a lot of time thinking what other people think our boundaries ought to be? Right? And it doesn't matter. So you know, you can even write all those out, just do a stream of consciousness writing of all the things that come to mind, what should be a boundary. And then after you've done a page or so of that, your stuff will start to come up what is important to you, you know, I was raised by British parents. So we have this whole thing around behavior, manners, polite, this did it. And and there were very strict rules around that. And you knew those were very strict rules, they weren't going anywhere. Other things would be more flexible. So I'm going to say that for my parents, the manners, good manners were important for them. And they had a boundary around that. But other things. And the thing is, if a child has no boundaries, then they don't feel safe. Because it's like pushing against the walls and having the walls move. If you don't know where you end, and the next person begins, it's awfully hard to feel safe and secure. So you try harder, you push harder. And that's where the behavior escalates to a level that you know, now this kid looks like they're out of control, but they're actually out of his boundaries.

Yes, and we have to be the example right? So I'm going to just say a quick boundary, I make my bed every day. Like I do not leave that house without my bed made. And so that is kind of like an unspoken rule and boundary that I when I look around the house, I want to see beds made. And so not only am I asking it of my family, but I'm also loving it. Because it means something to me. It makes me feel good and so Oh, I can see how that is so true to me. And just one other story, my son, I would say it's a bolder decision. And when I said it's a bolder decision, you know, if they want to ask for something, it means no negotiation. That line, as you had said in your chapter is so ingrained in in our in our life, that you are not going past that. So I, we had a sign word where it would be bolder decision, there's no more discussion it is and don't even don't even go there.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Right. And being consistent with that, then is absolutely the key. Because the parents that I've worked with who have issues around boundaries, they'll tell me Well, I don't really like to set boundaries. Oops, it makes me sound so strict. Well, you know, look at it from the child's perspective. If, say, for example, if you go to work in an office, right, and your boss says, It's day one, oh, hey, hey, Linda, have a good day, you know, do all the things and walks off? You're sitting there? What am I supposed to do? How much of it am I supposed to do? Who do I give it to? When's it done by? You know, what does it have to look like? Does it need to be, you know, five pages or one page? What do they want from me? Nobody told me anything. Anxiety is piling up, because you have no rules. Now, if somebody comes and gives you rules, oh, okay, so I have a deadline. You need it this way. It's gotta go here. Oh, I can't do that. That's too much. You know, you have things that you can then work on, it's more tangible. But if there's no boundary, there's no sort of scaffolding? How are you going to get the task done? It's anxiety provoking. And then the child, if this is what they're experiencing, their behavior starts to show the anxiety.

So I have a question for you. Because I clearly understand this. And I realized it's important. And I have some problem with people whose boundaries are so rigid, that they become an empathetic to the needs of a child who is who is having a meltdown? And I don't mean like for something insignificant, but what do you do in those circumstances?

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Something like that, I would want to talk to the person with the rigid boundaries and investigate what that means to them. Like, why Why have you chosen the things you've chosen? Why are you so stuck with that? And is there more information needed? Because for example, you mentioned the child's having a meltdown, and somebody has a very strict protocol as to how they're going to approach that. Well, if it hasn't worked yet, I'm going to say it's not going to work. So let's have a look at what information do you need to change that boundary to something more workable? Because just because you want to set it doesn't mean it's a good boundary? It's a work in progress quite often. And by that, I don't mean, okay, move the line. But you might want to change the format a little. So, you know, with a child with a meltdown, if they're on the floor and flailing and things, and you have this Well, I'm just going to walk away and ignore them. I don't know if that just came out. You know, if you have that approach, well, is the child safe? Like, are they? Are they going to get hurt? What are they telling you with the tantrum? Is it the same every time? I doubt it, it's probably coming from different things. But also look at the repercussions of your response. If you walk away when a child is in distress, they're abandoned, they feel that way. And that causes all kinds of issues later on in life with that sense of abandonment, which translates into I'm not worthy. I can't do anything limitation, limitation, limitation. And then coaches like you and I spend, you know, hours unraveling that story that came from this kind of event, you know, where somebody's had this rigid response. So really examining the response, why is it there? What does it mean to you? Like, how could we do that a little differently? Because it's, it's a battle, it's probably not the best boundary, or you're in the wrong place.

You know, it's so interesting, because as a school teacher, you know, where I saw this often is in agendas. I don't know if you're familiar, you know, we're in Canada, but at the end of the day, the students would have this agenda and they would write down important information and homework. And my son, his teacher had this this rule very strict that you had to read Don't everything that was on the board in your agenda for your parents. And it said, so concert tonight. And I had parent teacher interviews. So my son, who's very logical thinking, I told him clearly I could not attend, and the teacher for sins write it down, even when we all knew I couldn't go. And that did not sit well with them. And it was, it was a very unfortunate circumstance. And I've also seen, you know, other teachers, your parent didn't initial your agenda, and then the child was reprimanded, or to a consequence, when it wasn't really the child's fault, the parent, you know, forgot, or it was it got slipped away, or the agenda when and I see all those boundaries, settings with agendas. And I honestly, I just shake my head.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Yeah, see, I don't think that's a boundary so much is a very rigid rule. And rules don't necessarily have logic, whereas boundaries really need to be based in a point, like, there has to be a point to this. And the whole agenda thing. That's a power trip, that's, uh, you know, look, I'm in control, you will do this, this is how we do it, boom, boom, boom, and it's very Sergeant Major like, and if there's consequences, which actually, it's not the consequences, it is a punishment that the child then gets, well, the definition of punishment is not what you intended it to be. But it's what it actually does. So punishment will reduce the behavior that happened immediately before it. That's, that's an effective punishment. So be very careful when you use punishment, because it's not what you intended to affect that it affects. It's the thing that happened immediately before. So if your child comes into school and says, you know, here's my agenda, teacher and hands it over, and then the teacher gets all upset and punishes them. Well, you know, they might start forgetting their agenda or losing it, or stuff happens to the agenda, because that was the behavior that happened right before the punishment. It's not a conscious thing, but it's how people respond. So punishment, you might want that child to have a negative experience. And I would ask you to look at that question. Why, you know, why does it need to be negative, but that's usually the intent behind a punishment. But the reality is, it's just something that reduces the behavior. So real life example is, if you're walking down the road, looking at your phone, and you're, you know, scrolling, still walking, and you walk into a post, mediate consequences, ouch. And you know, you drop your phone. So next time you're out walking, chances are, you'll put your phone in your pocket, where you'll at least look up more often. But chances are, you'll put it away the punishment for the behavior and not paying attention was the pain of walking into a pole. So it's a natural consequence, that follows on and stops the behavior before it.

So interesting, really fascinating. And I love what you said, there is a difference between a rigid rule and a boundary. Yeah, I really want the listeners to walk away with that, because that's for children, that's for ourselves, that's for others.

Michaela Gaffen Stone: Definitely, we do tend to get rule bound, if we feel out of control. So rules help you to feel in control. But they're very often not sensible, like they just don't fit anywhere. You could do without them and have a happier day. And the kids too, you know, there was one child I'm working with. And I'm trying to get him to a place where he can go into a regular classroom. And the classroom teacher said, Well, he can't come in until he stops stimming. You know, he flaps his hands. And sometimes he gets up in the rules. And, you know, I'm arguing back and forth with her because No, that's his coping mechanism. Why would you stop that? Some people dwell there, some people click pens, which I find annoying. You know, some people tap their feet or they wriggle. This kid flaps his hands, like just give him a space where he can do that. It's not a problem. It's not disruptive. And he's self regulating with that. So the longer the argument goes on, the longer it takes before this kid can get into a regular classroom classroom, but I can't stop him from, you know, managing himself, that will be counterproductive. And that's not but it's a lack of knowledge. You see, the person the other side is sort of, well, no, I can't have that behavior in the classroom. Because to them, it looks like it's acting out in some way. But it's actually not I mean, if everybody listening just starts to shake their hands for a few minutes, you might I find that at the end of it, you're like, oh, actually, okay, I feel, Yeah, I'm good. And particularly if you're working on a knotty problem, you know, you're trying to figure out some tech, for example, that gets me going, be able to move something shake your body do do some movement can actually help move that tension. So if your child with autism, they just know that they're just instinctively helping themselves, and the normative developing world is trying to stop them. And that's really, you know, a child with autism doesn't need to blend in and not a chameleon, and they're not part of the wallpaper, they don't need to fit in, they need to belong in all their glory, and all their colors exactly as they are, you know, the behaviors that are a problem, we figure out how to do that differently. So it's not a problem. But behaviors that aren't an issue, why would you even work on them? You know, if you don't like labels, take them out. If you need to flap your hands, flap them, you know, these are not things that are world changing. But this is for the child, but not for anybody else.

Fascinating. We could talk all day, because I just love this discussion. But I want to thank you for being on a call for love. And our book, our forgotten children, there are, I believe there's 14 chapters, and 14 authors. Yeah, I thought it was 1514 or 15. In any case, they're all little nuggets of information that are really so powerful. And I really invite people if they haven't, you don't have to be a parent, you don't have to be a teacher, you could be a grandparent, a caregiver, we are, you know, raising the youth of tomorrow, today. And so it's just really being very mindful. And of course, all these permeate into our own essence, our own relationships. But if people would like to get a hold of you, because you have a wealth of information, and I just loved hearing your real insightful and intuitive and kind suggestions on how to, to really raise children with respect and honoring them, how can they get a hold of you?

Michaela Gaffen Stone: I'm very easy to find on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram, because Michaela Gaffen Stone, there's only one. So put that in the in the search bar, you'll find me. And I'm mostly on Facebook of those three. And then I have email Mikki mi KK I at Geffen, GA, f f e n stone, like a rock.com. And you'll find me, and I'm very responsive. I love getting emails from people. I'd love to get questions and, you know, see if I can help out. And I do a parenting reimagined coaching program as well. So that can be small group or it can be individual, it can be a blend, it's whatever the parents need to feel that they're being seen, heard and helped.

Awesome. I'm sure many people will reach out it was really valuable. And as you were speaking, I realized this is communication. Because I said 14 chapters because it's me and 14 other authors. Right? Isn't that interesting? Yeah, we really have to pay attention. And notice, and I hope people take time to notice, I will place all the links in the show notes. And also what I'm going to place in the show notes is our interview. I was on your podcast, which was very, I was very grateful to be on your platform. So thank you very much. I will put that link in our show notes too. But all call for love listeners, really just holding space for those boundaries, really being mindful of what is the rule and what is really important in your life. And I really thank you for joining us. Thank

Michaela Gaffen Stone: you so much for having me. It's been lovely and I too could talk for hours on this. You could probably tell. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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